trying to do it differently - parenting after an abusive childhood?

[Leonine]

Any other mummies out there who'd like a sort of support thread on the particular challenges (and joys!) of being a parent yourself if you grew up in the kind of family that you really don't want as a role model for your own? My own childhood was very, very emotionally abusive and that affects me as a mother in lots of ways, good and bad. Good in that I try to do things as differently from them as possible, and a fair bit of the time I succeed; bad... more complicated. I'm hoping that if there are other mums going through the same kind of thing you'll understand where I'm coming from. I'm not looking for answers as such as I've already spent a long time coming to terms with these issues; more for shared experience of what is inevitably a painful situation in some ways or others, and how to manage that. If there are others out there in a similar position, would be good to hear from you!

I have found this one of the most important threads I have seen - to break the cycle of negativity is so important. I raised the PIL's issue because I think one of the things that could help a lot when you have had an unsatisfactory childhood is people around you to help and support. Luckily for the most part my husband is a good support to me - we disagree on issues of safety and have had some blazing rows about (IMO) his slack attitude to those things but it is getting better. However his father is a poisonous influence (whose own daughter called him a bully and said could you imagine growing up with a father like that) so finding helpful avenues of support I think is crucial when you have not been shown a good parenting example.

In terms of the smiling - I am the same - I don't like my smile, don't think I am atractive and feel miserable sometimes. I think you have got to just do it - smile, laugh, fake it all the time until it works - my children deserve the best of me - I am the only mother they will have and I owe them the best childhood I can.

My husband has started to see his father in a negative light after his recent behaviour so he does know but I say nothing now - I will deal with his father directly from now on and be assertive instead of passive/aggressive which is my normal mode of operating.

At the moment I'm finding it difficult to really accept my childhood. I am desperatly aware that I need to break the cycle that was passed from my grandmother to my mother.

Although in reality my past affects my whole life, my main difficulties are with my perception of my parenting skills.

Today as been a much better day. Have tried to take many deep breaths and accept that the boys are little so will make a mess/noise. We managed to make it through til about 7pm when we were all tired before I felt I couldnt cope. This seems to be trigger point of the day when we are all tired and fractious.

I am not very good at spontaneity and find that planning my days and weeks helps me to cope as I find the thought of 9hours alone with DC very daunting. By breaking it down into 1-2hrly slots I seem to be able to make it more managable.

Leonine - your comments about Denial are so true. I am still totally in denial about my past. Even to this day SHE describes me as a difficult person. I do also wonder if it was a bad dream/my imagination as when I have tried to confront her she just says that I was only punished for bad behaviour and that I have an over-active imagination. Even now I feel I am justifying her actions by saying that she was taught them by her mother.

Spoken to my HV today who is going to get in touch with the outreach team and there is a parenting skills course that I could go on. Part of me desperatly wants to tell her as the only person in RL that I have spoken to is DH and part of me wants to tell someone else as if that somehow makes it real. But how do I start the conversation - "excuse me, nice weather, btw, I was beaten and emotionally abused as a child....."

fledto, I can very much relate to your feeling of desperately wanting to tell somebody like your HV about what you have been through, but like you say, it's not the sort of thing you can just drop into the conversation.

I have started being a bit more open with people in RL about my parents. I have found it is important to wait until I feel I know them well enough to know how they will 'take' what I tell them. I am sure you will have a sense as to how sympathetic/empathetic your HV will be and I would only tell her if you think she will be sympathetic and non-judgmental. Sadly there is no guarantee that your HV will be understanding and supportive, even though one would think that those are qualities all HV's would have.

afterall, I absolutely agree with you about the smiling and laughing thing, just fake it for the sake of the DC's. I am going to make a conscious effort to do this. Yesterday I smiled at one of the mums at DS's nursery and we ended up having a nice chat initiated by her and I am sure that me smiling and looking friendly made her feel it was ok to talk to me. I think I must generally walk around looking grumpy and miserable and unapproachable (just like my dad) and it's no wonder I find it hard to make friends.

I absolutely agree stilltravelling - I have bought the books by Beverly Engel mentioned I think earlier in the thread (I have an amazon addiction) and I see a lot of horrible thoughts and behaviour in me - I have to be honest and say some of me is not nice - I can make every excuse/reason under the sun - my father was a nutcase, but I am almost 41 for pity's sake and I have to take responsibility now and I look like a miserable person a lot of the time. It is hard to make friends when you are angry a lot of the time.

Hi, Can I join too?

It's late and the baby is sleeping terribly at the moment so I haven't had the brain space to read all three pages but wanted to join in while I remember in the hopes that I will remember to come back again and read more thoroughly.

This has really struck a chord and I am pleased to find other people who are going through the same thing. In the real world it's just me and my sister. We grew up in a very abusive family - in all senses - and becoming parents has been wonderful but very hard too. I'm so pleased that my children are confident and happy but even more bewildered than ever at how I was raised and I struggle often to know what to do without a good parenting role model. I'm still wrangling over the issue of whether to break contact with my mother. To someone not from my background it seems like a no brainer. She was violent and unstable when we were children and she still isn't a very nice person but it's harder than it seems to break away. She's such a destructive force but a tiny bit of her is a normal person and I end up feeling sorry for her. I know we would all be happier without her and I really wish I had no sympathy as I am pretty sure she has none for me.

Anyway, when I get a minute I will pop back on and have a proper read and join in properly.

I had an abusive childhood and I too find it hard to parent with no point of normal reference and constant anxiety that I am damaging my children

It is getting better through therapy and MN and finally opening up about my childhood to people I trust but I still have work to do.

As a mum I will start with my good points as I need to boost myself after a bad week

1. I am patient most of the time
2. I parent unconditionally
3. I show lots of affection
4. I really try to see my children as individuals. I tell my ds that I love him because he is the only him in the whole world and he is mine - not because he has achieved x and y or is well behaved 5)I bake, read and paint. I allow a bit of chaos and noise which I was never allowed. I was never read to or baked with.
5. Most of the time we don't shout and my dh and I have a healthy and loving relationship
6. I have given up my career to be with my children and I spend a lot of time with them

However here comes the big BUT - whilst I am patent most of the time, when I am tired or it has been a bad week I am liable to snap and shout and even be physically agressive. It doesn't happen very often but when it does it leaves me feeling full of guilt and self loathing as a mother.

My ds is 4 and can be challenging. He is a wonderful little chap and only being 4 but it can be trying. I am ashamed to say I have smacked him, have screamed at him and yesterday I picked him up by his T Shirt and shoved him into the downstairs toilet knocking over a basket. I slammed the door shut and held it there for about 30 seconds

He came out and I apologised, hugged him and explained that mummy should not have allowed her anger to escalate to such a point. He shouted that he was angry and I said that was okay. I explained calmly why I had got upset (he was shouting in my face, repeating back what I was telling him off for and lashed out at me). He has not been himself this week as this behaviour is not usual.

We had lots of cuddles and I tucked him in and told him that I loved him.

However these outbursts whilst they don't happen often are terrible and I worry they will damage him. I find it hard because no one admits to this in RL or even on MN so I am left feeling it is just me and I am the worst mother in the world

I think my angry outbursts are partly just due to the stresses of parenting but also due to some childhood issues. I am not genrally an angry person and the strange thing is that when such incidences happen it is usually on top of a day or two of being incredibly patient with trying circumstances and then a silly, small thing makes me blow and I act abusively.

I don't invalidate my ds feelings as mine were as a child. If he gets angry and upset after said incidences I allow him those feelings because I can see and understand that he feels injustice, humilitation and hurt. I would feel that too

But if no one can be a perfect parent just what imperfections are allowed and which are in the realms of damaging a childhood? I have no idea and I am confused and worried.

Rose, I liked what you wrote about telling your DS you love him because he is the only him.

I also liked what you wrote about apologising after you have had an angry outburst and then allowing him to be angry with you and letting him know it is ok for him to be angry.

People getting angry occasionally is real life which children will have to learn about at some stage. It sounds like you think that you are getting more angry than would be normal though for the situation.

It only occurred to me during the last year that just because I feel angry with people sometimes it doesn't mean that I hate them or reject them. I used to try to stop myself feeling angry in case it meant those things. You are teaching your DS that you can get angry with him but still love him and he can get angry with you and still love you. I think this will help him not to suffer from repressed anger in later life.

Which brings me to the next point that jumped out at me from your post. You said that you often have an outburst after a period of being patient during trying times. Were you forcing yourself to be patient because that is what the situation required for practical reasons? Then the negative feelings you would have expressed look for an outlet later on and come out when your brain sees something to get angry about?

If this is the case then the feelings that come out could be more extreme than you logically think the current situation warrants, because really they are pent up feelings from an incident or multiple incidents from before in addition to the feelings from the current incident.

I think this is likely to happen more if as a child you were 'trained' to repress your feelings. I was made to act happy while things I didn't like were happening to me and this builds up a massive rage inside. Maybe some of this is still what is coming out during outbursts after periods of forced calm? Maybe it has never been able to get out after all this time and is still looking for outlets? This probably needs therapy.

But even if you have vented out the bad stuff from the past, you may still be in a habit of self enforced calmness, so you need to find a way to do this differently. This is something I'm still working on. I think a Buddhist approach is probably the way. In situations where you have to keep calm for practical reasons (and there are lots of times like this with children), observing the feelings that come and telling yourself them in your head, thereby acknowledging them, but without acting on them. Then thinking about what action the current situation does require, based purely on what is now and not influenced by past events. Then afterwards, when you get a bit of time and space, thinking about what made you have the extreme feelings that you had.

Thanks ordinarySAHM

I am in therapy and I have come a long way, but I agree at times my anger is out of proportion with the situation and maybe I need to focus on some anger management.

It is strange because normally I don't view myself as an angry person and certainly people in my life would never guess!

It is usually something to do with the kids that triggers it. However you have really made me think about my own repressed feelings and how they may be affecting my parenting.

I did repress my feelings as a child and the difficulty I have as a parent is that I am scared of 'not being liked' by my kids. So I try to be the picture of perfect calmness and it is self enforced at times because they can really irritate me. I also think some of the repressed anger is from childhood.

But how do you express irritability and anger at your kids in a healthy way? I am sure it is normal to get angry at our kids and to be irritated by them sometimes, and you are right it is important to remember that this does not mean that I don't love them. But how do 'normal' (by that I mean those who had good childhoods) people deal with these irritations?

I do remember thinking once that I am so calm and good with them most of the time but then I blow. Maybe I should be more like other mums who maybe gripe at their kids a lot more and express their anger at their behaviour but don't completely lose it. Or as you said about the buddhist way - it is about acknowledging those feelings inwardly and allowing them to be but not to act on them

I don't want to be the perfect mother. I am tired and drained by that impossible goal I set for myself when I was pregnant for the first time. I do just want to be good enough. But I just don't want my anger to spill over into physical agression anymore, I am tried of the guilt.

and I realise that last comment sounded incredibly narcissistic because I am also worried that it frightens and hurts my ds

Yes, I was thinking that earlier, that maybe we should express some irritation here and there as soon as the situation arises, so it doesn't build up, but we are only expressing a mild bit, rather than the intense outburst that comes out if you let it build up. People expressing mild irritation is real life which children will have to learn about sooner or later, and maybe it is best if they aren't unprepared for it. They need to know what sort of behaviours will irritate others so that they try not to do it and make themselves unpopular out in the real world. So why do we think we have to act unnaturally calm and reasonable ALL the time like some parenting programmes on tv make you feel you should?

Do you know the thing I find really hard is that people will mention making mistakes as a parent, somebody even mentioned beating themselves up for every single little mistake

but nobody seems to talk about what those mistakes actually are. People mention shouting at their kids but I though everybody did that sometimes. So I am left feeling that my mistakes are huge in relation to others because nobody in RL or on mumsnet as far as I can remember every admits to smacking or being physicall agressive to their children

Am I the only one? I am sure I can't be so then I think well people are either in denial about it or they just don't want to admit it to others which is fair enough but I just wish another mum somewhere felt as I do and has made similar mistakes as then I wouldn't feel like such a freak

People post on MN very ocassionally that they have smacked their dc and people post in significant numbers about their outrage. I absolutely agree that smacking is not an ideal parenting practice but it leaves me thinking that there are mums out there who have never shouted, smacked or lost it with their kids.

Yet somehow I can't believe it. It leaves me feeling that we live in a society of fronts and keeping up appearances. A society indicative of the very narcissism I grew up with.

I feel quite sad and confused today. I feel all my mistakes weighing down on me, making me drown in a sea of self loathing and a feeling that I don't deserve to be here. Somehow my mistakes seem ugly and nasty

Do you know I think I am going to stop being so scared of my ds, scared of his disapproval

I will try a mixture of strategies. If he is really playing up and actually irritating me, I will express it a bit more. Not shouting and losing it but more just expression of my dislike of his behaviour ( I think it is okay to criticise behaviour but not the child's character or individuality).

If the feelings are more intense then I will acknowledge them but not act on them. I will try to acknowledge it is a bad day and be easier on myself

I will not try to be the picture of perfect calmness if I am not feeling it. I will be as calm as possible but not completely repress all feelings

Rose, people probably do avoid admitting to smacking etc and I can't believe there are people who never 'lose it' when their children really push them. I have once or twice smacked my two (the last time was when DS wouldn't stop hitting me and I smacked his bottom back) and occasionally moved them to where I want them to go more forcefully than I wish I had (eg moving one away from the other when they are hurting each other, but pulling them a bit too hard by the arm). And put DS in his room quite forcefully while he was kicking and hitting me.

I think it is healthy to feel the guilt to help you not do it again and it shows that you care (some people wouldn't). But constant beating yourself up won't do much good. The important thing is to think about what you can learn from each incident and think up strategies to make things go better next time.

good advice sahm thanks. It has just been a tough week and I am beating myself up more than usual.

I have once smacked DD. It was a long time ago, when she was about 2.5, I was 7 months pregnant with DS, staying at my toxic in-laws, and having to bottle up a lot of feelings and DD wouldn't get dressed one morning and I just got really angry and smacked her, not very hard, on the bottom.

Since that one time I have never smacked either DS or DD, I do shout at them occasionally, mainly when I am trying to get something done at home and they won't give me 5 minutes of peace in which to finish my task.

So far it doesn't sound that bad (I hope). But the behaviour I am very ashamed of and would never admit to in RL, is sometimes being emotionally/mentally mean and nasty, mainly to DD. I can't actually remember any examples to give you on here right now, but I know I have definately treated her in the exact same way that I was treated by my parents. I was rarely if ever physically beaten or even smacked by them, but there was plenty of emotional nastiness and cruelty, coldness, ignoring and whilst I am nowhere near as bad as my parents towards DD, (and thank God, DH is never like that with her), there are definately moments when I have repeated the pattern of my own childhood.

I am very glad of the opportunity to admit to this on here, as until now, my emotional abuse of DD has been a nasty secret I have kept to myself. Putting it out into the open like this is the first step towards dealing with it and eradicating it.

Hi all,

Thank you so much Roseability and soangry for your honesty, these very sensitive issues are ones that I struggle with too so I would love to have a conversation about them.

I have a request to make first though. OrdiinarySAHM, it?s kind of come out of your post where you replied to one of mine, but I don?t want to aim this all at you! It?s something that was going to come up for me sooner or later anyway, so this is a sort of general request.

In my OP I said: ?I'm not looking for answers as such as I've already spent a long time coming to terms with these issues?. I probably need to elaborate on that. I am really, really NOT looking for answers, advice or solutions when I post on this thread. In fact, unsolicited advice drives me crazy.

That?s not to say that I don?t appreciate the good intentions behind your post OSAHM; the desire to ?fix? others when we think they are in pain is universal and a normal part of human nature I think, and of course we all do it, and I am very aware that your post to me was meant with nothing but kindness, for which I thank you. But unfortunately when I read your reply I didn't feel consoled, which was how you perhaps wanted to make me feel; I felt unheard and unlistened to, and because I have a long, long history of that anyway, that was quite distressing.

I really didn?t start this thread with the aim of finding anwers or being ?fixed?; I am actually engaged in a very deep and long-term process of ?fixing? myself, with the aid of a fantastic therapist, with amazing results so far.

What I really want out of this thread (and I am speaking purely for myself here, I am not trying to impose any ?rules? on the thread as a whole) is simply to be heard. I want, ideally, a safe space where I can vent about deeply sensitive issues such as the ones Rose and soangry are talking about, where I can share pain and vulnerability and rage with other people who might very well get it because they?re going through something similar themselves, where I might get a response like ?me too!? or just straightforward compassion or empathy or understanding. But I don?t want to worry that if I write stuff like that someone who doesn?t really know me and my particular set of circumstances is going to tell me what I need to do to fix it. That inhibits me, which defeats the object of the thread, and if I post anyway and get advice rather than empathy, it frustrates me, so it?s a double whammy ? both of these outcomes interfere with my parenting rather than enhancing it, and the whole point of starting the thread was to enhance it.

Equally, if I want to share something positive, some small mark of progress or enlightenment, it would be nice to get a response ? if I get a response at all, of course I am not saying I demand or expect one! ? that acknowledges that, rather than something focussing on the work that still reamins to be done. For me, it?s all about breaking the isolation ? I feel fully understood by two people in the world, my DH and my therapist, and that?s a bloody good start, but obviously the world is made up of more than two other people and it would be nice to feel understood ? at least partially ? by some more of them! I do have some pretty good friends in RL who are generally supportive when I do touch on these issues with them but as they?re not dealing with similar stuff themselves, there?s not that sense of connection, and that?s what I do want.

I want to make it clear that I do get a lot out of other people?s posts ? most especially the ones where people are talking about the same issues that I am dealing with, sharing their own experience, and I get to think ?it?s not just me.? Obviously I know that in theory, but it?s so much better when I see someone else putting into words feelings and experiences that I have or have had myself. Those are the kind of posts that help me the most, personally.

And I want to stress again that I am not trying to suggest in any way that nobody on the thread should ever offer advice to others; clearly, there are many people on the thread already who actively welcome that kind of input, and if somebody actually asks for advice or opinions I may well be one of the people offering to share what I?ve learnt along the way, if it can be of any use! We are all at different stages, and on differing journeys ultimately, given that we?re all individuals with all our different personalities and experiences, joined only really by the twin factors of having had abusive pasts and wanting to do better by our own children. So we all need different things, and I would like to think this thread can provide those different things to the people who want to use it.

Like I say, this is just a personal request from me, about my needs and wishes, and it would mean a lot to me if those needs and wishes could be respected. Like many of us here, probably, I grew up with my needs and wishes being constantly negated and denied; in fact, often being made to feel guilty for having any needs and wishes of my own at all in the first place. So it?s a good thing in itself for me to ask for what I do want here. It has been really great to see how the thread seems to have taken off so far, and to see that other people are finding it a valuable resource, and that?s something I really hope will continue; but of course I want this thread to be useful to me too and that?s why I have to make this request. I would love to know that if something happens to throw me off balance, for example, I have the option of ?dumping? about it on here, so that I don?t take it out on DS in a damaging way. It wouldn?t matter if no one responded at all, just knowing I had that safety valve could sometimes make all the difference when things are getting a bit explosive. But for me, for that safety valve to be effective, I need to feel protected from unsolicited advice, which is why ? and I know i?m probably labouring the point here! ? I?m asking you ladies to please, not try and fix me!!

OSAHM, I really hope this hasn?t seemed like a bit of a bashing, cause it really wasn?t meant that way . Again, I thank you for taking the trouble to reply at all, and I respect and acknowledge your good intentions. I?m just trying to be the best mum I can be to DS ? the more I feel listened to, the better I feel about myself, and the better I feel about myself, the better mummy I am to him. And I sincerely hope I haven't killed off the thread with my very long post!!

allegra I do understand about the "dredging up the energy from somewhere". It's not easy with a 4.5-month old who is teething and not sleeping so well, while I'm also on a medication which has a side effect of insomnia.... but I feel unable to let my DP take him for the night. I feel it is my responsibility to get through this stage with DS and it's hard to let go and let DP take him for the whole night sometimes....

picklemum When I think back to how I was treated by both my biological mother and then later my foster mother, I don't understand how anyone could treat a dog that way, much less a child... or one's own child! No, I can't get my head around that one.

afterallyouknow I find if I meet or have to work with someone who is similar in personality to my foster mother, I take an instant dislike to them and it is nearly impossible for me to be civil to that person, and to work with them, etc. It is very difficult if someone is really similar to a person who abused you, so no wonder you have trouble being in company with your FIL. Any way you can limit contact with him?

Great thread, thank you for starting it Leonine

I'm sorry, I haven't been able to read the whole thread. I'd like to sign in too please.

Parental Units are superior. They have The Knowledge. They don't accept that all three of us (youngest 26) are adults, all grown up women. 2 of us have children of our own.

Why do they still tell us what to do?

Leonine, admitting I have been emotionally abusive and cold towards DD on here was the first time I have *ever^ admitted to such behaviour on my part. And I am grateful that this thread has given me the opportunity to make such an admission without being judged or criticised. Bringing this issue out into the open instead of it lurking secretly at the back of my mind is definately a big step forward in dealing with it.

I also want to say thank you to Rose on getting the ball rolling on this particular topic. It was very brave of you Rose, thank you.

DD is going to be 7 soon. I have been struggling with our relationship since the day she was born. In fact from even before that, even whilst I was pregnant, the coldness and numbness began before she was born. I feel I have reached the point now where she and I are truly beginning to bond. I have thought at previous points along my journey that I was at last beginning to bond with her and actually feel the love for her that I know I have inside me. But those were 'false' starts I can see now. I don't think this is another false start. I can tell it's real. When I comfort her after she has hurt herself, I am not just 'acting' sympathetic, I can really feel sympathy and empathy for her inside me. It is just a beginning, there is still a lot of work to be done, but at least there is a beginning for us. With my mother and me, the coldness and distance between us never changed, it was there til the day I cut ties with her and my father.

Sorry, it's me soangry, I'm now ABitTipsy!

Jo, I still struggle too with just how on earth could anybody, let alone one's own parents, treat a child, their child, so cruelly and coldly, with absolutely no regard for that child's feelings.

I find that I come to terms with it, understanding that that was just the way it was for me and it is futile trying to understand why, and feel ok for a while. And then a fresh batch of memories come back to me, and I am reminded again on my parents' cruelty, callousness and neglect of their innocent little girl, and once again, I am asking why and how could they do it?

I know my parents completely lack any empathy, lack any ability to feel, they are cut off from their own emotions because of their own childhoods. I know this is the intellectual explanation for why and how they did what they did, but it doesn't satisfy me on an emotional level and I think that is just something I have to live with.

ABitTipsy To be honest, I was relieved when we were told we were expecting a son. No, I don't believe for a moment that males are superior, but I was in two different abusive relationships with women who were supposed to nurture and protect me. To be honest, I am glad that I have a son, and I hope our next child is a boy as well. It would be easier for me to have only sons. I still have memory flashbacks as you describe, and I hate it, I hate the way that years of counselling can't erase the bad memories. Why can't we live more in "the now" as children do?

My mother wasn't cut off from her own childhood, which I think was a fairly pleasant one on a large farm, she was a paranoid schizophrenic. In a way, it's hard to blame her for her bad parenting, I just wish she had taken the medication that exists to help people like that. For my foster mother, who emotionally abused me for years, well, words fail me. I sometimes wonder if she got me just to torture me. She was rich but wouldn't take me to the doctor when I was ill because she feared being labelled "Munchausen's by Proxy", etc. I mustn't start or I won't be able to stop....

It is just so, so sad. I find it a bit easier to intellectualise my adoptive parent's behaviour. At times I worry that it is because I am not truly in touch with my childhood emotions (and that maybe true at times). I remember so little.

However I think it is largely because they are not my biological parents and I did have contact with my birth mother. I did not know her all that well, so it is easy to create in her my fantasy parent who embodies all the lovely qualities they were not. Somehow the fact that they are not my real parents, allows me to distance myself from them. I just feel no love or sentimentality for them what so ever, so maybe that is why I can understand and rationalise their narcissistic behaviour.

But it does hit me sometimes. That overwhelming sadness for that little girl. What might have been had I been loved and cherished normally.

It is not that I haven't done okay for myself. I have a happy marriage, two beautiful kids and I educated myself. I live in a nice area and we are financially secure. But in terms of my sense of fulfillment and happiness and the ability to feel confident and self assured in life, well I don't have that (although I am getting there bit by bit). There is a constant restlessness, self doubt, sadness and a feeling I have failed somehow and I just know that is my inner child - bruised and battered emotionally.