Just pretend for this thread that we're talking about a group of five adults here

[MrsWobbleTheWaitress]

not, four children and one adult, because we believe very strongly in UP/consensual living/taking children seriously/whatever you want to call it.

I need help with DD1! Flipping child! She's 6.5. She swings from being totally stubborn, and refusing to engage in problem solving (usually wrt planning what to do that day) to make us all happy, to being over-amenable and self-sacrificing to make me happy - 'whatever you want mummy'.

I am feeling angry and miserable about it.

Today's situation:

I have made her do a few things lately that she hasn't wanted to do, which I think is what is triggering this behaviour. I tell her she is in control of her life, but then take that control away when I lose my temper at the frustration of trying to find a common preference for the whole family.

So we've been invited to a very good friend's house this afternoon, somewhere I've ended up making DD1 come along with us to for the last three or four visits as everyone else has wanted to go. She's moped around for the first couple of hours and then got engaged in some huge big game with them all and hasn't wanted to leave at the end. However, with it in mind that I think she is reacting to not actually being in control of the decisions we make, I have decided to stick to my TCS guns and not force her to go this time.

The problem is that she doesn't know what she wants to do instead. She says she wants to go out. I know I need to connect with other adults IRL each day as far as possible, to keep black dog at bay.

I've suggested joining a group of other families who are meeting today to do junk modelling together. Everyone else says 'yes', she says 'no'. I've suggested a walk along the docks. Everyone else says 'yes', she says 'no'.

Please, please help! I am crying, now. I just don't know what to do to meet her needs. I know she has unmet needs, as they always do have when we have a period of unpleasant behaviour. She's not being selfish intentionally. I believe very strongly in consensual living, but I have not been enacting it the way I've been talking about it, so, in effect, I've been lying to her and she probably doesn't trust me one inch - what's the point in engaging in problem solving when you always overrule me anyway, Mummy?

So help!

1. immediate issue - what do we do today?

2. long term issue - how on earth do we find things to do that we are all happy about (myself included) without this battle every day?

I think most of them would be happy to spend a few days at home, just playing together/doing things with me/doing activities but I need time with other adults for my own sanity, which is important for the children, obviously.

All practical, and deep and meaningful discussion type suggestions very welcome indeed

Because she posts on the HE board about it. also think she has namechanged recently

She was recently extremely aggressive against a poster who asked home schoolers what the downsides of HS were.

Apparently there are none, although it seems whe may now be revising that opinion.

I would send the poor kids to school where they can learn to be part of a wider community and take responsibility for being part a bigger picture. It seems to me that the girl is having difficulty in finding her own identity.

MrsWobble you sound like a kind hearted Mum who only wants the best for her kids.

You obviously want your kids to grow up to be in control people. Adults who live successfully live within boundaries, some they set themselves, some set by society.

I think you need to set firmer, more obvious boundaries.
For example: 'later today we are going to do x, could you choose something nice to wear?'
Child has the freedom to choose something to do at home before you go out (without the PRESSURE to choose something worthy), knows the boundary is set (have to do x later), has a choice of clothes to wear (easy and fun choice to make).

Asking your kids to make the choices for your day puts pressure on them to make the 'right' choice. Although I am sure you don't intend there to be a correct choice, there obviously is one as to choose not to do what the rest of the family is doing is inconvenient.

Your child knows she isn't in control. She is telling you this by being uncooperative. She wants you to be truthful to her and admit that she is not yet an independent adult. You say yourself asking your child to make choices and then overruling them is hypocritical.

I have occasionally asked my kids what they want to do that day, always leads to them coming up with several conflicting and impractical ideas. I find it is better to ask casually if they have any ideas for things to do next week/in the holidays then
(a) there is no pressure for them to have any ideas at all
and
(b) no obligation on my part to take them to disneyland/the moon!

Life is not black and white, children need to make some choices, but so do you! Being more in control of YOUR life will help your Black Dog.

We all have different parenting philosophies, I would be interested to know how your parents chose to bring you up?

Ok- "extremely aggressive" was probably an exaggeration and I agree very out of character. I was just surprised how heated a n innocuous thread got. I guess we are all a bit sensitive around things we feel passionately about.

I can't comment on TSC because I don't even know what it stands for (in either sense) however...

Yesterday I had to spend the day doing something I really didn't feel like doing, because if I didn't I'd have let other people down. And you know what? I loved it!

If we spend our entire lives giving in to "because I don't really want to" then we'd miss out on new experiences. Even if the activity isn't a new one, it's new to that particular day.

It isn't just about fitting in to the wishes of the majority, it's about having the potential to go with the flow sometimes and enjoy it. We probably need to learn how to do this and at 6 (or 36!), that will probably mean some form of coercion.

The argument might start off with "because Bobby, Billy and Brian want to and so do I" and if that doesn't work, then "for the reasons I've already stated, and because I say so" is OK in my book.

Next time, the argument might (hopefully) be "Do you remember the time you really didn't want to go to junk modelling, but when we got there it was actually fun?". You never know

MrsW - I hope you come back and have a read.

Here's what I picked up from your OP.

You are feeling depressed, or worried that you will become depressed if you don't do the things you know help you to not become depressed (ie going out, meeting people), BUT you feel guilty (possibly because you are depressed) if this seems to clash with what your DD wants to do.

It is OK to put your need to go out above her need to stay in. Because

a) it helps you, and what helps your mood will ultimately help her

b) As you said yourself, she's FINE once she is out. It isn't the end of the world for her.

I have a nearly 7 year old son, and another one who was difficult at that age. I do try to listen to him, but sometimes, I honestly think I know best. Really, if he had his choice, he'd stay in all the time at the weekends. He makes a huge fuss when we go out, but then has a nice time.

I get how you are trying to parent, but it seems to me you are setting very high standards for yourself, which, of course you are failing to meet.

Ultimately, she doesn't have control over her life. That will come when she is an adult. I would not tell her that she has control when she doesn't. Discuss, listen, but ulimately, you must over-rule and not feel guilty.

Are you being treated for your depression ? (have suffered myself)

Yesterday I had to spend the day doing something I really didn't feel like doing, because if I didn't I'd have let other people down.

Exactly Otter.

OP - you say your daughter isn't being intentionally selfish, but 6 year olds ARE still pretty selfish. They don't see the wider impact of their behaviour on others, and getting them to do stuff they'd rather not do is part of their learning.

shiney - can you ask the OP to come back ? She went off because she's feeling fragile

I think in a situation like this you have to go along with what the majority wants to do-as ArcticFox said earlier in the thread if your dd really was an adult then she could just not go but she isn't and that's where treating her as one falls down.

It's hard because I understand where you are coming from wrt wanting consensual living but it's not consensual if it's to the detriment of others including you. I think it's maybe more possible with just one child but with four, especially as they get older, there will always be difference of opinon and someone needs to decide which option most benefits the group. Like 100x said the same would be true if it was a group of adults.

My dd is 3.9 so this may be completely irrelevant but I know that if I ask her what she wants to do she gets completely overwhelmed and goes into hibernation mode, dithering about getting dressed, eating etc. If I say to her "right come on we're going to town/the park/wherever" it gives her some drive and she will then say "can we go to x/do y afterwards?"

Also choices may work so she still has choice but within boundaries eg "shall we go junk modelling, for a walk along the docks or to the park" That way they are still choosing what they want to do but not getting overwhelmed by limitless options.

Mrs W, your DD is probably naturally coming up to the age where - whatever your parenting method - she will be starting to challenge it.

So don't assume that everything you have built up is starting to fall apart.

I agree with those who say that if you were five adults trying to decide what to do for the day, the grumpy/indecisive one would have to go along with the others unless they could suggest an alternative.

MrsW, I do sorta see where you're coming from. We have lots of house meetings and discussions in our house about what we are doing together as a family. But in all relationships, regardless of age, people need to learn the art of compromise. Or even the fact that you can't always get what you want....

there is some very sensible advice on here (not necessarily mine) and you haven't had a terrible roasting. I hope you come back, it sounds as though you need some adult support and generally, MN is a good place for that!

I hope MrsW comes back and I think what Jamie magic torch and also balloon slayer (and lots of others) have said is spot on. Hope you are having a better day now.

Oh and I don't see what being home-schooled has got to do with it. My school-schooled DS can be totally stubbon etc too.

I guess the HS thing is relevant in that MrsW and her dd don't get as much time apart as they would otherwise. I think it must be pretty tiring to spend all day, every day with a 6yo (not to mention the other 3 dcs).

I don't think (as others have suggested) that going to school is a guarantee of being better able to compromise. At school you generally (although not always) have to do x,y and z. There's no compromise to be made really. You get more opportunties to practise compromise with different people in the playground perhaps, but I think home is where you really learn the art.

Have been thinking about this thread all day.

the thing is, children learn from example, they don't learn what you tell them to do, they learn to do what you do.

So people pleasing all day then snapping and digging your heels in because you'[ve had enough of it is what you are doing.

What she is doing, in her six year old little way, is precisely the same thing. She is giving you an extremely clear message ("Whatever you want Mummy") that you are the person she wants a decision from.

You say you want to treat her as an adult, but that means not respecting her childhood. And it's not fair.

coldtits I think you're on to something there. I have had a terrible habit of giving in to ds at times because I couldn't be arsed to argue, in a dreadful "poor me" kind of way. I'm a great believer in choosing your battles, but this was just ridiculous. And then of course he started doing it, which is infuriating.

I too have been thinking about this thread, and I totally agree coldtits

"I tell her she is in control of her life, but then take that control away when I lose my temper at the frustration of trying to find a common preference for the whole family"

Your temper should be telling you that what you are attempting to do (meet all her needs, give her control) is NOT possible. You can't keep it up, it doesn't work for you and the family, so no wonder you are frustrated.

Ease up and you won't have these extremes in your feelings and expressed in her behaviour, as coldtits says.

"I just don't know what to do to meet her needs. I know she has unmet needs, as they always do have when we have a period of unpleasant behaviour."

Also, just wanted to say - they don't always show unpleasant behaviour because of unmet needs. Sometimes it's because they are tired, or hungry, or sickening for something. This statement seems to me to be another example of your high standards.

and even if it is her unmet needs - we can't always meet all their needs all the time.

MrsWobble

Please bear in mind that the human brain will not be fully developed at 6.5, nor at 7, nor even at 12. You expect her to be able to forward plan and problem solve, but I promise you, she can't. Not properly. Those bits of the brain which are required for those skills simply aren't there yet.

She is just getting to the point where (independent) unselfishness is possible.

Logical thought is on its way, to a great extent.

I have admiration for your preferred method of childrearing, but you really do need to do some research on what children are actually physically capable of first.

Excellent point Jux

The answer is simple: in a group of 5 adults, every adult would have to conform for 4/5ths of the time. If one of them did not accept this, the other four would gang up on her and either pressurise her into considering their needs- or ditch her.

Presumably you do not wish to ditch your daughter, so the only alternative is to make it clear to her that your needs are equally important.

If she expects to be in control all the time at 6- how does she cope with her peers? Are they expected just to give way? Or is it only Mummy who is not supposed to take control away from her by occasionally insisting on having her own needs met? As far as I can see, being asked to take turns in making decisions (if that is what you want to do as a UP parent) is no worse than being asked to take turns on the slide- surely you wouldn't accept it if she just pushed other children out of the way because "I'm in control of my life".

Telling her that she is in control of her life, in the sense of having her needs met at the expense of those of other people, is setting her up for disappointment, because we are none of totally in control of our lives: we live in a society and need to meet the needs of other people as well as having our own needs met. I think it makes it easier to cope with this if we have it spelled out, as a positive thing, from the start.