Just pretend for this thread that we're talking about a group of five adults here

[MrsWobbleTheWaitress]

not, four children and one adult, because we believe very strongly in UP/consensual living/taking children seriously/whatever you want to call it.

I need help with DD1! Flipping child! She's 6.5. She swings from being totally stubborn, and refusing to engage in problem solving (usually wrt planning what to do that day) to make us all happy, to being over-amenable and self-sacrificing to make me happy - 'whatever you want mummy'.

I am feeling angry and miserable about it.

Today's situation:

I have made her do a few things lately that she hasn't wanted to do, which I think is what is triggering this behaviour. I tell her she is in control of her life, but then take that control away when I lose my temper at the frustration of trying to find a common preference for the whole family.

So we've been invited to a very good friend's house this afternoon, somewhere I've ended up making DD1 come along with us to for the last three or four visits as everyone else has wanted to go. She's moped around for the first couple of hours and then got engaged in some huge big game with them all and hasn't wanted to leave at the end. However, with it in mind that I think she is reacting to not actually being in control of the decisions we make, I have decided to stick to my TCS guns and not force her to go this time.

The problem is that she doesn't know what she wants to do instead. She says she wants to go out. I know I need to connect with other adults IRL each day as far as possible, to keep black dog at bay.

I've suggested joining a group of other families who are meeting today to do junk modelling together. Everyone else says 'yes', she says 'no'. I've suggested a walk along the docks. Everyone else says 'yes', she says 'no'.

Please, please help! I am crying, now. I just don't know what to do to meet her needs. I know she has unmet needs, as they always do have when we have a period of unpleasant behaviour. She's not being selfish intentionally. I believe very strongly in consensual living, but I have not been enacting it the way I've been talking about it, so, in effect, I've been lying to her and she probably doesn't trust me one inch - what's the point in engaging in problem solving when you always overrule me anyway, Mummy?

So help!

1. immediate issue - what do we do today?

2. long term issue - how on earth do we find things to do that we are all happy about (myself included) without this battle every day?

I think most of them would be happy to spend a few days at home, just playing together/doing things with me/doing activities but I need time with other adults for my own sanity, which is important for the children, obviously.

All practical, and deep and meaningful discussion type suggestions very welcome indeed

You parent very differently to me, we know that already

I think that having a set plan of some activities a week that your DD is expected to do could be a good thing. Explain to her why she needs to do these things and how important they are then give her more choices elsewhere. This is not hindering her, rather showing her that some structure is a good thing and that sometimes we have to compromise for the common good.

Perhaps she is a child who needs more of a routine? My DS1 is like that, he likes to know "so it is Wednesday that means X", it is a comfort to him.

I do have sympathy with your way of doing things btw - but honestly, in all fairness, a 6 y-old doesn't always know what they want to do, sometimes it can make them dizzy just thinking about the endless choices.

Sometimes it is reassuring to be told 'this is what we'll do, this will work, I'm looking forward to this, come on, get your shoes on, I'm going to show you a great day, I've got such a cool idea'

that isn't not taking someone seriously, that's taking charge and making some decisions, to SAVE a 6 y-old from having to.

I'm pretending it's five adults who are discussing what to do.

If it were 5 adults, your DD would have a choice

1. Go along with majority choice and tag along
2. Stay home alone or do what she wants to do on her own

But that's where I struggle because presumably that's not an option unless you also have a full time nanny or can clone yourself.

Ability to exercise adult choice also means ability to exercise adult independence and responsibility, which I doubt a six year old can do. Unless you just take it in turns to decide, I dont know what else you can do.

Consensus is fine until people disagree and then compromise comes in.

It probably doesn't help that she is home educated! Have you asked if she wants to go to school. At least at school she really would have some independance from you!

If I was in a group of adults who were dithering and undecided and the whole day was about to be wasted away, well I then too would jump up and say,

'right, come on, you useless indecisive lot, let's do THIS, you can't decide, you're wasting our time. The junk modelling it is, follow me, no moaning at the back'

"I tell her she is in control of her life"

Blimey! I'm nearly fifty years older than her and I'm not in control of my life. No-one ever is, you have to compromise. You may be "captain of your soul" (guess who saw Invictus last night ) but you cannot control things.

PS. If you suggest things and she says 'no' then isn't the obvious solution to ask what she wants to do. And then wait for one of the others to say 'no' to her idea. That's when she learns that no-one has it all their own way and we have to accomodate each other.

By insisting on consensual parenting, you are actually going against the spirit of the philosophy. Perhaps your child does not want to participate in consensual parenting? Surely an practitioner of unconditional parenting should accept that, and allow the child to be directed, rather than oblige the child to participate?

Agree with ArcticFox. You can't pretend that children are adults, because they are not responsible for themselves. If a group of friends couldn't agree on where to go, the majority would get pissed off with the awkward one and go anyway, leaving the dissenter to it. That's where your approach falls down for me. I have a six year old. He would have a melt down if I gave him total choice. He'd also never eat anything healthy, wash, go to school or go to bed. You have to be taught to make sensible choices, and that is a parents job. Your approach might well work with certain types of personalities, or with older children, but it seems that your DD is not responding to it.

I think Arctic Fox has hit the nail on the head.

Your 6 year old dd does not yet have the wherewithal for adult independence/autonomy.

Parenting, surely, is simply a matter of stepping in where its needed all along the way, gradually loosening the knots of dependence slowly slowly as you go along.

Your 6 year old is already a million miles away from the creature she was on day one (in terms of her dependence on you), but she is only a third of a way through her journey to adulthood and you are needed to make some decisions sometimes.

What do the books suggest at times like this? Or do they not address the glitches like this that come up?

what 100x said

Oh and my final thought is -

Honestly, the days I say 'well what would YOU like to do, YOU lot decide what we're going to do' and then listen to the squabbling of ideas, are the days I'm running on empty and can't think of anything

which is quite understandable

but it's NOT FAIR to then blame your 6 y-old because you're running on empty

iyswim

Totally agree with prettycandles.
both my dc's need different gudiance, dd doesn't like decision making and prefers a more we are doing this today approach, she also finds her own ways to help her make decisions eg. she has a self inflicted hot-cold lunch schedule at school dinners Today it will be a hot day so she will choose something off that menu tomorrow she will choose sandwiches and fruit as she knows her own strong point is not making decisions so she has decided this is one way to avoid it. But she is also very laid back and has never been one t be bothered about routine and is generally happy to go with the flow.

Where as DS is the decision maker of the 2 of them despite being 2 years younger than her and dd is generally happy to allow him to be yet he likes routine and a plan and to know what is happening next.

I have had to learn to play to their skills and let guide them in the things they need help with and llow them to explore their strengths freely.

You cannot as much as you want to, imagine that this conversation is happening between all adults because the simple fact is that it isn't.
Children are not miniature adults and their thought processes are different to ours.
Your dd is not coping for whatever reason with being allowed so much choice she needs more direction.
There are times as adults where we need to be the adults and step up to the mark as much as we want to avoid it at times.

I appreciate that people on MN often disagree about the 'best' way to parent, but I think it is really unfair to pretend you can diagnose an attachment disorder based on a couple of posts!

I don't think MrsW will come back to this thread which is a shame because there are some very interesting posts here - I feel I have learned quite a bit from reading them actually .

MrsW - if you do see this - how about trying to extend the consensual living ethos you practice with your family to the rest of us on Mumsnet? Agree to disagree if you must but, really, people are trying to help here if you could only see it.

I don't know what kind of parent you are, but I do know that 6 year old girls can be unbelievably stubborn just for the hell of it

sorry, no solutions but your dd sounds entirely normal

MrsWobble is trying to "keep the black dog at bay." MrsW is talking about "four children and one adult". MrsW sounds somewhat overwhelmed and undersupported to me.

When the black dog looms it can be difficult to avoid barking at your dc. Particularly when there is no other adult to co-parent with you.

Sometimes the only way I can deal with this, myself, is to disengage with the dc. "You choose what to do tonight." Then leave them to their own resources and hide myself away (often on MN) until dinnertime.

I don't think this is entirely about parenting philosophies or skills.

I don't think it is either. I like her philosophy, and largely agree with it - except it does require huge enthusiasm and suggestion and ideas ime, and getting the balance of listening and leading from the enthusiastic front. And when you're shattered and exhausted, it's much, much harder to pull off.

Come back Mrs W.

Prettycandles Mrs W also home educates the children. Its her own choice so undersupported is not really an excuse.

But it isn't about finding excuses or exercising blame bruffin.

It's about the facts as they present themselves, and someone looking for some help. That's what MN is about, no?

Everyone makes decisions, and sometimes they work and sometimes they get stuck, and there's nothing clever about blaming them for those decisions - much more helpful to try and understand and find ways to help unstick?

I'm not saying that it's an excuse. It is part of the problem.

No I don't think its an excuse I just think it is quite an important fact that the OP has left out.It puts a different slant to the problem as most 6 years olds would be at school and have some relief from their parenting whether good or bad.

I missed the reference to HS. If she's left it out, how do you know she's HSing?