Bedtime Problems with 6 and 4 year old

[Jillxx]

My 2 girls who are 6 & 4 both share a room. Every night my husband and I have trouble with the girls. We try to get both into bed by 7pm (but we have also tried later times right up to 9pm!). On average we end up going upstairs to tell them off about 6 - 10 times before they sleep! Usually they fall asleep after about 3 - 4 hours from being put to bed even when put there at 9pm. While they are up there they go into the bathroom and take water into the bedroom to tip over their bedding, jump from bed to bed and generally misbehave. We have tried bedtime stories but find they, alike baths, don't seem to calm them.
My husband has even on occasions tried smacking lightly after several warnings but to no avail.We are now at our wits end and feel they are in command.

A friend of mine who used to do a lot of babysitting swears by the following remedy... she used to pick up the phone and pretend to call Father Christmas. She would then tell him just how naughty the children were being - it worked every time. Probably not the advice you were after but it might be worth a try.

Yep - it sounds as if they are in control!!

Obviously, telling off and smacking don't work. In fact, their antics sound to me like classic attention seeking behaviour - and boy, is it effective!! 6-10 trips upstairs every night - wow!

here's what I'd suggest: instead of going bananas at them for being horrible, reward them and praise them for being good. Give attention for being good. There will be some times you need to step in and prevent floodings, of course, but in the main they should find they get your attention for being nice and co-operative. So, you take them up to bed, tell a story, and then say you will come up again in half an hour for a cuddle/sing song/story/quiet game of cards but only if they behave nicely. Keep your promise if they keep theirs. If they continue being good, they get a star (a shared chart, probably)...and five stars in a week means a special treat. You can never withdraw a star once won.

Give lots of love and praise and adoration when they are good - really OTT, it's fine.

Be consistent - you need to try this plan for at least a few weeks, and to adopt the same strategy in the day, too. It will not work if you crack.

(I speak from experience. Also a good book is The Good the Bad and the Irritating by Dr Nigel Mellor, for parents of attention-seeking kids. It's puboished by Lucky Duck Publishing). Good luck!

Dear Jillxx

You are not alone! I'm having exactly the same with my two - also 4 and 6 years old. The star chart is a good idea and does work - provided you don't keep threatening to take them off which we seem to do - you could end up with minus stars!

The hot weather doesn't help at all either so I'm giving them a bit more leeway as it is hard to go to sleep when it's so hot.

Good luck - if anything in particular works let me know. It's very draining isn't it? Like you I don't want to be shouting at them all evening.

MaryLou

Thanks for all the great advice. I will firstly try the idea of yours Tiktok, about going back up if quiet for 1/2 hour to do story etc then if good after that then star for chart. That idea will start from tonight!I will let everyone know how I get on with it after a couple of weeks. PLEASE though do keep sending in any ideas or suggestions for me just incase this doesn't work with my kids! Marylou it is lovely to hear I am not alone, what a coincidence that yours are the same age, have to keep in touch and see how things improve for both of ours, Good Luck with yours! The Father Christmas idea I had been doing but stopped it once they offered to dial, I even went to the extremeof dialling my father after an initial warning that he was to put on a voice, my kids seemed fooled but after Christmas told me in no uncertain terms that I was wrong, even if they were naughty they would still get Santas pressies!
Keep sending in ideas....thanks - heres hoping!

My two girls share a room (4 and 2yrs.) I put them to bed at seperate times, would this work for you? My two year old goes at 7pm and once asleep my four year old goes up.

When we first started this method the two year old would still be awake at nine pm, which was a problem but we persisted and things have setteled down.

My four year old sometimes had to go to sleep in our bed because the little one was still awake. (we would carry her through once they were both asleep) but this was a very short term solution to the initial problem, now they realise the routine is not going to change they have adapted well.

I also tried lying in the room with them whilst they fell asleep which i found worked really well as they enjoyed it and the threat of me leaving the room was enough to keep them quiet. After a while it was only taking ten minuites for them to fall asleep, leaving me free to enjoy my evenning. However i had to stop because i was falling asleep on the bed too!!

Thanks again for the messages, but again, please keep them coming! The more ideas the better!
We are at the mo trying the star chart idea of Tiktok's and so far my youngest is falling asleep quite quickly, to our surprise during the first story, my eldest is still awake, it is now 10.30pm she went up to bed at 6.45pm. Have had to go up as she was piling all of the items in her room up on her bed and moving furniture!'Thanks for your help, like I say, please keep ideas flooding in!

Jillxx Please do come back in a few days or weeks and let us know what works. My sons are 2 and 4, and have to share a room. At the moment we do OK - we put the older one to bed first, and he goes to sleep quickly and very deeply. But the younger one is a little monkey, and tends to get toys out, and generally mess around, and tries his hardest to wake the older one up. (Like climbing into his top bunk, hitting him over the head and shouting "Wake Up!") So I fear our days are numbered ...

Well, now my luck has again run out, we don't even get as far as the 2nd story, I brush their teeth, toilet then bed the kids with a book, have even tried reading a few chapters of a book, then saying be quiet for 1/2 hour, showing them on the clock where the hands need to be and promising the rest of the book. They misbehave too much to get the rest of the book. My husband and I are at our wits ends, we feel so powerless, no threat is enough, no promise good enough. Yesterday the went sneakily into the bathroom and climbed up ion the toilet then onto the sink and reached up on top of my medicine cabinet for the plasters and decided to stick them on themselves, also moved round furniture, beds etc. We have withdrawn things from their room to make it as basic as possible, there are no toys in the room (they have a playroom, which is locked at nights!), no books as these are not used properly. The only way I could get them to sleep last night was by taking in my competition mags and doing them at the end of their bed AND repeatedly telling them to shut their eyes and stop fiddling and doing annoying things to get reactions! It took nearly 1 hour for my eldest and way past an hour for my youngest. I don't think I should have to do this! My eldest fell asleep at 5 to midnight (they both have to be up at 7 - imagine our mornings!) Any more ideas - pllllllllllleeeeeeeeaaaaaaassssssssseeeeeeeeeeee!
(please!) Any more suggestions gratefully received.

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Jillxx, I too havn't got any direct experience of this, so I don't know if I can be of any help. Poor you, it sounds so stressful. To me it seems that despite your best efforts, your daughters have got into a 'naughty' rountine together and keep each other awake. Could you try separating them? The old 'divide and rule' method. I know at my son's school, they have a practice of breaking up groups of children who are being naughty together.

Could you make up a temporary bed somewhere else in the house? downstairs, preferably, in a dining room, hallway etc where you can keep an eye on them. Then say to your girls that they have one last chance to be good (tonight) if not, the next night one will have to go and sleep in the spare bed, if they misbehave. Draw a chart so they each have to take a turn in the spare bed on alternate nights. You then carry the sleeping daughter back to her proper bed later on.

Alternatively, could you stagger bedtimes so daughter number one goes up alone and has to be asleep before daughter number two is allowed up. Even if this means late nights for you, at least you are breaking the habit of your daughters being naughty together, and hopefully they may begin to settle earlier.

I really don't know what else to say. Will post again if inspiration strikes.

Thanks for the advice Tigermoth and Bloss. My kids are 6 and 4. We have tried separating them, they used to be in separate rooms but they kept going into each others and ofcourse playing with the toys in each room. SO we put both in one room and made the other into a playroom with a lock so we thought it would be a good punishment, no toys if naughty - that was a good idea, a very good deterrent! BUT not good enough! The rope idea I think could excite the kids and be taken as a game. Also they need to be able to access the loo!
Thanks for the suggestions though - PLEASE anymore would still continually be gratefully received.

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I used to be quite naughty with my twin sister when we shared a room. My suggestion is to remove all the things you don’t want destroyed (plasters etc) from the bathroom to another room (you’ve probably already done this) and take anything away that can be used to carry water through. Therefore the bathroom isn’t such an area of interest. Maybe rather than making their bedroom less interesting it may be an idea to make it more so … we used to move furniture around and often it was a way of stamping our identity on the room. What about encouraging them to organise their toys in a certain way – putting dollies to bed that kind of thing. Often bad behaviour can be due to boredom. Have you tried a night light – you can get nice ones that rotate and throw patterns on the wall – say you will bring it through and put it on when they’ve been quiet for half an hour.

We were allowed to stay up late usually about once a week for a film, we would get ready for bed and come down in our dressing gowns and go straight up afterwards. Maybe this is an idea to do part of the winding down routine perhaps in the living room. If they genuinely aren’t tired at 7pm then maybe this is too early and they are getting bored in their own room. Children’s sleep can vary enormously. (Some day my son only sleeps 10 hours and he is only 2). Also summer is a difficult time as it is still light outside. However I am amazed they can stay the course till 11pm or later!!

How are they during the day – excitable, sleepy, bored? What else is happening just now – any problems with school/nursery? What about their diet – anything they are eating that could cause hyperactivity? Perhaps I am clutching at straws here but orange juice and too much milk has been pinpointed as trigger foods.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Jillxx, I really sympathise as I have been going through something similar with my eldest two. I have to chase them back up to bed many times, and had to brush my son's teeth 3 times recently, as he kept sneaking down and helping himself to food!! The hot weather certainly didn't help. I think Eulalia's ideas are the best - get everything out of their orbit. We've got latches on all the other upstairs doors so that they can't open any of them. It's a bit like the rope trick but with the important difference that instead of locking them into their room, you're locking them out of other rooms they might trash. So hopefully they will stay in their room once there's no fun to be had anywhere else - how about small electric night lights or cassette recorders to be had on low? At the moment, I feel that if they will at least stay in their room, that's enough for me, no matter what strange noises are heard downstairs!

Jill, you haven't tried your new regime anything like long enough - you need to be consistent over several weeks. A few evenings is nothing. Staying in their room and giving continual reminders to behave is rewarding their attention-seeking behaviour. I wouldn't bother with ropes or anything - just carry on with the regime you started only a few nights ago, stay calm, and show them your will power is stronger than theirs.

At the risk of providing material for a despicable dirty protest... a potty in the room is an alternative to access to the bathroom isn't it? Just a thought. If you haven't read Doc Chris Green's stuff and 'Solve Yr Child's Sleep Probs' I think you might find a lot of support and help in there - life savers for us (now 4 & 2, sharing, lots of 'secret' allowed getting up). Good Luck, you are a lovely kind Mum and Dad and you deserve yr grown-up evening.

JillXX another evening dawns (or dusks?)anyway, I'm glad you're getting lots of suggestions. I may well be in the same predicament as you when my younger son is out of his cot. He's nearly over the side, so I reckon I've got just weeks to go.

I was thinking back and remembered something I had to do a few years ago with my oldest son one summer. For varous reasons he and his father, who was at home with him full time, got into a routine of late lie-ins till 10.00 am. Consequently when I took over at 6.30 pm son was still full of beans. So the first part of the bedtime routine involved me taking him to the park for a big runaround. At least one thing that works in your favour during these light evenings.

After the fresh air, he had his supper, usually including something filling like mashed potato. Then a bath. Bed time was at 9.30 (not that late when you consider his waking up time, plus a nap during the day). He usually slept pretty well after this.

So just a suggestion, if you can take your daughters out for a runaround just near to bedtime, this might make any other rountine you plan easier to implement.

Good Luck.

Oh and by the way, I think putting latches on your upstairs out-of-bounds room doors is an excellent suggestion.

Also, to make the latches really unreachable, removing from their bedroom any furniture they can climb on and drag.

Sorry, Jill, I sounded very high-handed and critical of you, and I didn't mean to. I do sympathise, and I have been in similar situations, believe me. It is very demoralising to feel that much out of control, as parents know in their heart they need to be on top of things, and that they end up getting md at their children when all they want to do is love them and be relaxed with them. But it is important to stick to something over and over and over - if you give in after a few days, things will get worse, and the out of control thing will seep into other areas of family life - and it's a real bummer. Good luck - and see if you can get hold of the book I mentioned. It's better than Green's, as his just concentrates on toddlers.

Thanks to everyone. I have just re-read all the postings and am very grateful for all the comments. I did however fail to mention that my eldest is being assessed for possible ADHD or similar and is on Ritalin (LOWEST DOSAGE) and Amitriptyline. She suffered from excessive mood swings etc and was out of control, her tempers resulted in her calming down after over an hour and breaking down in tears saying over and over how she did not know why she was so naughty / screaming / etc. The tablets have helpted a lot but recently she is going backwards in progress. Basically since a little while after a dietician put her on a food elimination diet. She must stick to it till mid August (it is a VERY strict diet!), also she has an EEG planned for next week, will post and say how things are going on that score too! Re. bedtimes last night and tonight I got them ready for bed then had them lay down and shut their eyes on separate settees in my lounge. They are now both snoring in their beds, went down to sleep after 30 minutes so when fully asleep we took them upstairs. This is working at the mo, know it is not ideal but am fed up fighting all the time, this way I can keep an eye, and they were asleep by 8pm (MASSIVE IMPROVEMENT!!!) my choice not theirs! Tonight my eldest had one of her biggest tempers since the diet, scary...but thankfully behind us now. I will keep you posted on all! Thanks again!!

Have a 2 daughters 7 and 4. Some tips:
Always make sure they have eaten before they go to sleep. I recommend porridge - it is heavy in the stomach and it seems to really make them sleepy. I have tried Cammomile tea on the 7 year old - prob. has a psych effect at least.
Always read a story together at 8 pm, put the first one to sleep alone, take the second one downstairs and have a bit of a chat with her and then up with her at 9 pm. She is having a problem with being scared about going to sleep which is my biggest problem at the momemnt. Thieves and trolls (we live in Norway) are the recurrent nightmare...
I feel really sorry for you and it seems to me that once kids have got into a bad pattern it is really hard to change it (from my experience).

I also agree with the comment on praising good behaviour and not discussing bad behavior -it helps. Have also tried stars, works in short term but it got a bit hysterical in the end and the 7 year old started acting like the "star-police" over the 4 year old.

2107 - thanks for the tips, Porridge my kids will not eat and they will not drink the tea. They are very fussy eaters and will go hours and hours never complaining of hunger or thirst, I have never backed down when stated no more food till next meal and they have never complained. It is a wasteful losing battle!
I am contemplating different times for bedtime though not sure when to do from, my youngest is 4, eldest is 6, any suggestions on times? At the mo. whatever time I put them to bed the earliest they fall asleep is gone midnight! My eldest has ADHD which I don't think helps things. When upstairs in bed they misbehave and I end up acting like I am on a bungee rope, up down up down the stairs. They go to bad extremes to get attention and they way they do cannot be ignored, ie. trashing room, water play etc
Any more tips advice gratefully received

I have a 6 year old daughter who goes to bed at 7 every night. She has a tv/video in her room, so if she's not tired she'll watch a video in bed. It keeps her in her room and helps her to relax. She turns the tv off when she's tired or she falls asleep watching it. If you get a tv/video for their room you could let each child choose a film on alternate nights on the condition that they stay in bed. If you're short of chidren's films you could just tape their favourite tv programmes for them to watch, kids usually don't mind watching the same things over and over again.