Bedtime Problems with 6 and 4 year old

[Jillxx]

My 2 girls who are 6 & 4 both share a room. Every night my husband and I have trouble with the girls. We try to get both into bed by 7pm (but we have also tried later times right up to 9pm!). On average we end up going upstairs to tell them off about 6 - 10 times before they sleep! Usually they fall asleep after about 3 - 4 hours from being put to bed even when put there at 9pm. While they are up there they go into the bathroom and take water into the bedroom to tip over their bedding, jump from bed to bed and generally misbehave. We have tried bedtime stories but find they, alike baths, don't seem to calm them.
My husband has even on occasions tried smacking lightly after several warnings but to no avail.We are now at our wits end and feel they are in command.

I seem to have 1 question after another at the moment - sorry.

I am having a nightmare with my sons' bedtime now. (they are coming up 2 & a half & 4) They used to have their own room, but last summer shared a room on holiday & liked being together & asked to share. For a whole year this worked fine with no problems. I recently bought bunk beds, so there's no turning back, plus the now-vacant room is soon to be filled by number 3.

I have had problem-free bed-times forever until the last month or so, and it's now a total nightmare and just getting worse. Screaming, talking, screaming , laughing, shouting, arguing,- and the latest - getting out of bed & running round the house. Every night ends with me shouting & being so cross I could slap - never have & never want to, so it scares me that I feel like this. Plus, ds1, who has always been a great sleeper, as has number 2, has started waking up in the night, every night. He wants a drink, he can't find his pillow, it doesn't matter now. And he has got stamina - he just doesn't seem to stop crying until you go to him, so ignoring doesn't seem to work. I now wake at the drop of a hat & I'm exhausted. Dh is working late loads atm, so he's often not here for bedtime, or even through the night sometimes - I realise this (+ the pg) might be contributory factors, but neither of these I can do anything about.

I guess I feel so powerless - I'm tired, fed up, depressed that every night ends so negatively. In the morning all is forgotten (by them), so doesn't seem an effective time to comment, plus atm, with the night wakings & the pg I can hardly speak or function in the morning, let alone deal with last night's hassles.

So what can i do?
I can't really separate them - need the room for ds3. Plus feels like admitting defeat.
Separate bedtimes? Seems like such an effort & will prolong my evening doing one after the other, esp as I have a 3rd coming - the thought of 3 different bedtime rountines is too depressing.
And the nighttime waking - cc for a nearly 4 yr old who'll just keep on going and going? Again, the thought of getting up to feed new baby 10 times a night in addition to ds1 crying for his pillow is just too depressing.

Any ideas I'd really appreciate it. I tried the star chart ages ago with no success (with ds1) Maybe I could try again? Anything else? What sort of rewards do you get? Ds1 seems convinced he's due a motorbike any day now!

please! Anybody???

Hi Monkey,
I can't promise to help as I've had no direct expereince of your problem. I have a 6yr old and a 2.5 yr old. I have had sleep problems with my 2.5 yr old - waking in the night, not going down etc.. which also happened completely out of the blue. I think with mine that she was "overtired". I've not solved the problem, but it's a bit better at the moment.
All I can offer is an objective view (I'm a strong believer in a fixed bedtime routine - but you probably do that)and this is what I tried with my 2/5 yr old combined with what I think I'd do if they shared a room!!.-

1. A good run around outside - fresh air and exercise - before tea/supper
2. a Carboyhdrate based tea/supper( pasta/potato etc)
3. A bath with lavender and camomile. I brew up 2 camomile teabags in a pint of water and add to the bath and also afew drops of lavender oil.
4. I out a couple of lavender drops on the bedding as well.
5. Story wind down time/cup of milk with both downstairs.
6. Take up youngest, leaving the older one to watch a video ( as he's a "Big boy". Settle down youngest with another story and leave
7. Take older one up when younger one asleep ( ideal world this I know!!! )
8. Give older one a star chart - one star for going off to sleep quietly and not disturbing his younger brother - and another star for sleeping through the night ( harder I know!!_)

With my 2.5 yr old I did cc - not easy/practicle when they share a room - Does he wake at the same time each night? - A nightlight worked for us as Dd was scared when she semi-woke up and couldn't see. Now each night she goes to sleep she askes me if I've put on the little light so she can see!!
As far as rewards go I offer them a treat if they get x number of stars - mcDonalds, Wackey Warehouse etc - something they love and I hate usually.
Good luck - let me know what you do and how it goes...

My completely random thoughts...

Do they have a specific bed time routine? (bath, teeth, story, SLEEP)
Have you tried a pasta jar instead of star chart as this allows for "punishment". Add 2 pieces of pasta for good bahaviour, take 1 away for bad, count pieces at the end of the week and give that number of little treats (chocolates, stickers, whatever)
Have you asked your 4yo what the problem is? Ask if something's worrying him, talk him through how important it is to be good at bed time, how he's the Big Boy etc etc..., ask if he does still want to share with DS2 (cross the bridge of where baby sleeps later!)

Monkey, I don't have any experience of 2 but since you're desperate I'll add my ideas too! Sonnet's ideas sound good re routine, exercise etc and so do Soupdragon's. I'm a great believer in star charts (sorry, I do know I bang on and on about them) so I'd say that's worth a try again too. Re the waking in the night, I'd say DON'T go in with a drink although leave a cup of water next to the bed for if he wants to get it himself. Ditto re the pillow or whatever else he wants - I'd try to keep it to a minimum of attention and reaction and a very low key, quiet, Go Back to Sleep please. I think it is quite exciting for them if you lose it in the middle of the night (I used to). And you're probably right, maybe they're playing up because your dh is away or late a lot - I know ds will sometimes give it a go if dp isn't here at bedtime. If you're hard enough, could you threaten a lock if the running around shennanigans doesn't stop? (appreciate you may not want to follow through on that though and they may push it to see if you do so hmm, not sure if that's good advice really.) They have got to know you mean business though so I think I'd try a big announcement about what is going to change and why and how and what will happen if they don't comply (sorry to sound military!) and see if that works. Good luck, let us know what happens/works.

thamks for your ideas, but things have gone from bad to worse and it's not even bed time. i am bawling my eyes out, this must be my worst ever day as a parent. I am so miserable and desperate I don't know what to do or where, or ther than mumsnet I can go for help.

Sorry, I know this is all so dramatic in view of all the other BIG problems some of you have, sick babies, miscarriages, deserting dh/p' etc etc, but I just feel like I've have 4 great years of being a mum and now I can't do it anymore. Dh didn't get in from work till after midnight last night and was out by 7, so he might as well not be here. He's having a really hard and stressful time, I feel so sad he's is this situation at work, I can't ring him during the day, and I can hardly start a big parentling seminar at midnight, the second he walks through the door. My family are all too far away/busy/useless to help.

I got up this morning feeling we'd all really try to turn this around. We had a talk about last night. We talked about how we could make it better. We drew up the star charts etc etc. We all agreed no shouting.

After lunch I sat down having a cuppa, thnking, oh please, the house might have gone to pot, but I won't shout, we'll have a nice day & be nice to each other. they'd gone down to their playroom, I could hear them giggling, all was well......... and then they came upstairs, laughing and covered from head to toe in red paint. They looked like they'd had a serious accident. I tried to keep calm. then I noticed EVERYWHERE is covered in red paint - the white walls, the floor, the settee, I sat them in the shower and they just kept giggling. I was in tears by this point & told them how upset I was with what they'd done, asked if they'd known it was wrong, they just kept playing and giggling. I warned them again to stop & said I felt close to slapping them. I feel really strongly about hitting children, but I did - a slap on the bottom. I feel so wretched. they wouldn't stop giggling, It's like they're totally taking the piss out of me all day every day. Dh is never here at the moment. They're now locked in seperate rooms, I'm still crying and I can't see how to move on from here. I can't see how to parent them/ chanel/control their behaviour. I've not had really any/many major prenting issues, or so it feels, over the last nearly 4 years, but now, with their combined persona - what a disadvantage to them getting on so well! I can't cope. I can't believe I slapped my children. How the hell will I cope when the baby comes? How will I survive the summer with no playgroups, dh away, mates away. God sorry this is such a long self-pitying rant but it really is the final straw. There just doesn't seem to be an end or a solution to their challenging behaviour, and I clearly haven't got what it takes to deal with it.

Monkey, preschoolers are programmed to annoy their parents to the point of breaking. I gave myselfa sore throat yesterday shouting at my 2 then DS1 behaved like an angel during a visit to his new school and was complimented on his good behaviour by another mother!!

The giggling is not necessarily them laughing at you. It can be a nervous reaction - for example, when confronted by a parent in tears and clearly upset they just don't know how to react. The first thing that happens is that they laugh. Do you ever laugh when nervous? I know I do!

When you've all calmed down, make them help you clear up if you've not already done it. Explain calmly why it's naughty and say that they're not allowed paint until they can behave with it. I won't ask how they got the paint because I've had a similar episode with blue ink

You will cope fine when the baby arrives. If you can find one with space, is private day care an option for one day a week? These don't break for the whole of the summer. I put DS1 in at age 2 just before D2 arrived and DS2 also went at 2, both for 2 days a week. It saved some of my sanity although it is, of course, an expensive option.

I also think you do need to sit your DH down and tell him how you feel you can not cope. This will not be easy - my DH never seems to be here either. Partly he works long hours but he also gives no thought to us when arranging his social life. If your DH is working such long hours, he can have no way of knowing just how bad things are getting and how you are feeling. I'm not sure how you're going to find the time for this though... you're right; midnight after a stressful day for the both of you is not the right time.

Sorry, I've no magic solutions, just a ew incoherent ramblings. Bundle the children off in the garden and have a nice cup of tea/coffee and a biscuit.

whereabouts are you?
Hugs.

The reward systems can work with anything. Just think of how many pieces of pasta you could have taken away for this episode.

Oh Monkey, I think I know how you feel, don't despair, it won't always be like this, honestly.

• Stop beating yourself up about one slap - it's not the end of the world. They'll forget it very quickly, you must too.
• Agree, get them to help you when they're cleaned up. Or hell, leave it 'til tomorrow. If you can bear to (I could but know many couldn't).
• Also agree, you need to talk to dh and tell him how you're feeling
• you're pregnant, it makes you cry so this has got to you far more than usual I'd guess. I cry at anything atm.
• Agree, the giggling is nerves, prob not defiance. They know when you can't cope and play up even more sometimes IME. Great isn't it? not.
• What about that teenager you mentioned elsewhere? Any chance of her coming to help?
• What about babysitters? Do you have any so you can get at least one nights sleep? i.e they do the night or let you sleep early eve. All of this is harder to cope with when you're tired.
• The paint is probably water soluble so I'm sure it'll come off. It's just a PITA to do isn't it? Sorry you're having a terrible day. Will post again if I think of anything.

Hi Monkey,
Agree with everything Soupdragon said....so won't repeat, just an idea to add..
I presume that the older one is leading the younger one astray - could it be a case of him getting board? - when will he go to school? - could you get him into a nursery for a couple of sessions a week or a couple of days??

You are a good Mum - just going through a tough time so don't be hard on yourself...I can appreciate having no one to help, my family are too far away or too useless too.....
Keep posting, and let us know how it goes
Hugs....

Poor you - all that paint Do they have any friends you could palm them off on for a few hours? Or get another mum round to take the strain off a bit? Do you think they are a bit bored ATM? No excuse, I know, but maybe an explanation.

thanks soupy - if you don't mind me being to forward. I'm in Switzerland. Normally I love it and am very happy here, but right now I feel totally isolated. Summer is always a dificult time, because so many people go away, usually for long periods, and everything shuts for 6 weeks. Dh will be away for a week, the week after next, but frankly, he is atm anyway, because he's in well after the boys (& I ) have gone to bed, and he's gone before we get up. I really feel for him, it's not normally like this, but atm he's under enormous pressure. I can't add to it, and anyway, he's too distracted to do anything other than sympathetic coos & apologies that he can't be around to help me.

I always laugh when nervous. I got into trouble a lot over this, and still do from dh who can't understand. I am therefore very sympathetic to this predicament, but they were just fooling around pushing & shoving, and believe me, nervous laughter was not on the agenda. Ds2 has now fallen asleep, ds1 is just pottering about, I've just tried to lie down but it just makes me want to cry again.

I like your idea of the pasta jar more than the star chart. I guess it fits in with my vindictive nature - being able to take the pasta back out. They'll have to get a job with buitoni when they're 16 to earn enough pasta to pay me back for this one. We have lots of pink patches on our rented, white walls.

It's scary, but I just feel so hostile to them right now. It really feels like everything they do atm is deliberatley calculated to wind me up. They are succeeding, and I am losing - have already lost - the battle.

you're all so great. Thanks www & sonnet & aloha.
Yes, I think they're bored. The last few weeks, but esp last few days have been so hot we've not really been able to go out. Today has been very heavy rain, so we've not been able to go out.Also, all of the usual playgroups are shut, my best mate's not around, loads of others are away on holiday.

Actually, I think the younger one tends to take the lead in mischief. The older one isn't due to start school for another 3 years, the younger for 4 years, so I'd better work out sharpish how to keep their sharp minds occupied. Elder will start playgroup in October - but this is only 2 sessions (a couple of hours) a week, which is 1 less than he's been doing up till now!

My teenage babysitter is away for 7 weeks. My neighbour & I often help each other out, but now she's away for the next 5 weeks. I've got a number from her of a woman, but can't seem to get through. Will try again though.

Reading it back, it doesn't seem that big a deal. I suppose it's not the paint as such, it's the feeling of drowning & panick, that every turn is a new challenge which I just can't deal with.They seem to be really into trashing the place atm. i'm sure it's worse than normal. I try to be really firm about them tidying up the mess they make, but it just isn't possible - right now they are like a couple of whirlwinds, pulling the settes to pieces, spilling food all over the floor, pulling all of the books of a shelf. Everytime I get a room tidy, I go back in to find it trashed. I know kids are normally messy, but they are in a different league, and on a different planet atm. I guess the tiredness is also a big factor - which brings us back to their nocturnal shenanigans. I think separate rooms would be a quick solution, but, problem is, want the room for baby, so it could only be short ter. Do you tink it would cause more problems separating then reuniting them, or admitting defeat? Don't know what to do for the best.

I assume the walls are easily paintable o get rid of the pink splodges though? You may need toseal them marks first to stop them bleeding through the new paint.

I often sit down and think "I'm an adult. They are small children. How can they make me this angry/upset/annoyed?" I'm sure my brothers and I weren't like that as children - if we were, that's another thing I'll have to apologise to my parents for along with "But why mummy?" and "Are we nearly ther yet?".

Without coming across as nasty, I'm pleased someone else is as far past the end of their tether with their children as I am. That alone certainly makes me feel better - I hope it makes you feel less alone too. My DSs are 4.5 and 2.5 so similar to yours in both age and current temperament .

If all else fails, drug them with a drowsy medicine...

It's my DS2 who's the ring leader too!! DS1 was an angel child but has been led astray.

As for whirlwinds of mayhem and destruction, you need to have a look at my house...

No playgroup?! Then you're a saint. Don't they have children in Switzerland? Can you take them to the park in the heat or rain? My ds doesn't care about weather (I do!) Miserable for you but maybe you'd be more miserable staring at your pain-spattered walls! Do you have a garden you can hurl them into?

It had just stopped raining, so I sat down to have a cuppa beofre we went out. i told them we were going out in a few minutes. I took them to the playground yesterday. It was so hot & packed, pplus there's a good cafe there, s o we were there 2 minutes before they were begging to go to the cafe. We did fee the ducks though...
i like the sound of drugs...

Seriously, would you all have just manages a stern - that's no good - here's a cloth to wipe it up?

You've managed to actually raise a smile. Now there's an achievement.

Ah so you had a cup of tea. that'll be the problem then. They hate to see a mother relax...

Mmm - IMO it seem like boredom and being confined to the house has caused this - does it get cooler in the early evening - could you go out and let them run around then??.
Just to be contradictory though, overtiredness may also be a problem. If my 2.5 yr old dosn't get a nap during the day she is a nightmare at night - won't go down and is restless and waking up all night!!
With everyone being away it sounds like it has got on top of you - don't know what else to say, other than i am thinkoing of you.....and it will get better - honest!

No, Monkey, I would have screamed at them at the top of my voice, threatened to kick them both up the bottom and then burst into tears

That doesn't mean I don't know how it should be handled, I'm just not a saint!!

Can you write a load of activities on pieces of paper and conduct a "lucky dip" where one of them gets to pick something out of the hat. Someone somewhere elses once suggested making a treasure hunt which involves the maximum running about between clues. You leave a picture of the bath in the kitchen, in the bath you leave a picture of a living room, in the living oom you leave a picture of a bedroom etc etc and in the last place, you leave a treat. It (supposedly) gives you 15 minutes quiet time to sit with a cup of tea whils your children wear themselves out hunting down and eating their treat. Obviously, I've never done this and prefer to shout and scream blue murder at my children. Sigh.

well, update - bedtime did not go well. Dh unexpectedely came home early, which was great for the boys. i think he wished he hadn't bothered as i was so miserable. Ds1 said they'd been naughty. Dh asked what had happened, i told him & he immediately cracked jokes like 'so you caught them red handed then?' and "did you see red?" . My look let him know I didn't find it so funny.

Anyway, they were adorable with him, until bedtime (which is always same time btw). ds1, go upstairs please "no'. Go upstairs "no". "Can you go to the toilet - no' I mean, everything with him ends up being so bloody confrontational atm.You can't make everything into a game, dh definitely can't be bothered with that approach.
Anyway, stories read, teeth brushed, cuddles etc. More encouraging noises about being good, getting stars, no noise please etc etc. 1 minute later, screaming, shouting . Dh was furious - they're just taking the piss! He exclaims in wonder & fury. So he stomped up, got ds2 out of bed & unceremoniously dumped him in the spare room.

No more bother. So, we now i guess have to find ways of dealing with the flat refusals to do anything, and choose if we're going to do separate bedtimes (a real hassle, esp when I'm alone) or separate bedrooms, leaving us with a prob when baby comes.

I feel drained! Thanks for your ideas. Tell me this is just a phase!

monkey, don't know how far along you are, but small children's perceptions of time are limited - if they still want to share a room, separate them now, and tell them they can only share again when they can behave. If they misbehave again, separate them again. Continue until message is received and understood.

The new baby won't need to have its own room immediately, and in fact could share with either of the older ones as and when required while still tiny and in portable bed. In my limited recall of tiny babies they are not actually disturbed too much by other people yelling. You will have 3 children and 2 bedrooms, and could even utilise a living room for the baby if necessary, until the point is made.

They will grow out of this anyway although I can imagine that is no comfort to you with the summer looming. Good luck.

Bye.

Thanks jahn. I would be more tempted to separate them if it were easier. Problem cot (bed) already erected - had to clear out a damp storage room, so had to get cot bits out case they went mouldy, so we reconstructed it while we were at it. The cot bed can't fit throught the door, and both ds's sleep in bunk beds, which again, can be deconstructed, but again, will entail tons of work. why is it never easy???

I've started with the pasta in tub scheme this am - I put myself on it too, for a bit of familial solidarity. I think they need more attention for sure, so I'll have to cut back on mumsnet! And take some imaginary patient+happy+marypoppins pills!

I'm now at the end of my 1st (horendous) week of summer! Only 4 more to go before we visit the UK & the boys get over-dosed on gifts, doting relatives & turn into demanding monsters before we beat them back into submission!

They've been sweet so far this am, both individually & with each other.

Hello, Monkey, I'm very glad you are having a better day today!

Maybe yesterday's blow-up will have chased the mischief away - a slap is a huge shock for a child who isn't normally slapped, and you being so upset will have affected them too, so all that has probably concentrated their minds wonderfully. Good luck with the imaginary Mary Poppins pills.

If the bedtime shenanigans do continue though I really think it would be worth trying to separate them. Could you just take the mattress off one of the bunks and put it on the floor in the baby's room? Of course that wouldn't stop DS1 waking and crying, if he still does, but with luck you will have had a more peaceful evening before it and could cope with it better? And it shows them you still have Power

Do you think you sound convincing when you tell them off?