toddlers and table manners - what are your expectation?

[lawrieisluckybutnickyisnicer]

er, that's it really.

dh's family have much higher expectations than us.

i don't necessarily think these expectations are a bad thing. maybe even a good thing if these are goals to be actively working towards, rather than a dogmatic enforced. i find eating with in laws and extended family very stressful.

part of this is trying to reconcile our approach to dd (23mo) with sil's approach to her dc (4 and 3). so consistency hard and i am always very careful to help to try to maintain the standards they set for their kids.

to my mind the following apply for dd (22mo). not sure how they would apply to older toddlers cause no experience.

** make some semblance of a thank you to whoever cooked. similarly ask to leave table rather than just get up and go. guess this depends on the toddler involved how much of this they can do - but certainly work towards it.

** if rude about food "dont like/want this" should be told that's not appropriate.

** work towards staying at table longer bit by bit. but certainly not be kept there til all adults have finished pudding and chatting etc if it's a big family thing (by which i mean more than just bog standard tea at home three of us on a tuesday IYKWIM)

** know that playing with food etc not appropriate etc etc

dd is just about okay with the above. but i have no way of knowing her brother (8mo) will not be a bounce around restless boy and i fear the future!

**rather than dogmatically enforced

dd is 23 mo btw. i have a brain like ... err.... the mum of a 23 mo and a 8mo

I have 2 year old boy twins.

I am approaching this step by step rather than in one go.

Step one - no climbing on the table during meals! Once i have cracked that I will go to the next thing.

Otherwise you just find yourself spending th whole meal saying "no". And how stressful is that for everyone?

We recently had lunch with a family who are much stricter than us. No Standing on chairs / no using fingers / no getting up without permission. It did our head in trying to keep up. And made the meal very stressful. And we didn't think their kids were any better behaved than our as a result of it.

I think that as long as they are not actively annoying anyone else (eg by climbing on table during the meal or banging on the table) then you should be able to count that as a success!

rofl at your first step. i fear that i am quite lucky with dd but dont want to start counting blessings yet...

yes meal times with stricter others are tough. at dh's aunt the other day we had a horrible meal. if SIL hadnt been there i would have asked if dd could get down and play once kids had finished eating rather than wait for grown ups to have second helpings of pud, but i did not want to upset things with her and her kids.

and fact of the matter is that her kids DO stay at table without nagging to get down and whining and DO not relentlessly ask for cake from moment meal started. eating with dh's extended family is so miserable - i hate it. but it seems they've achieved what they wanted. tho everyone still very tense, like dreading kids misbehaviour.

My just turned 4 year old knows he has to sit down throughout the meal, use cutlery (sandwiches etc aside ), eat with his mouth closed, say please & thank you, wait til everyone's finished before he gets down (although I let him get down sooner if he's got friends or it's a particularly long meal) and ask to be excused and he won't get any pudding if he hasn't had a good go at first course.

I don't bat an eyelid if friend's children come for tea or we eat out together & they aren't doing the same as I realise I'm a bit anal about table manners & frankly I'd rather have a meal in peace than listen to children whinging
LCN

I'm really laid back. We did BLW and I still don't mind DS (he's just turned 2) using his fingers. If he stands up I'll tolerate it for a while and then I'll ask him to sit down. He eats very well and mealtimes are a pleasure.I allow him to get down when he's finished.

I don't offer pudding as a reward for eating all the savoury part of a meal - I think it creates the wrong associations. BLW teaches you to relax and allow the child to decide when they are full - so it's a continuuaion of that really. I don't always follow a meal with a pudding at all.

He behaves very well when we are out most of the time as well.

Spending all of mealtime fighting a losing battle with a toddler is my idea of hell. I choose my battles. That isn't one of them!

Oh and if my DS says he doesn't like or want something I believe he's telling me the truth, not being rude.

Step one: no one is allowed to eat the cat/dog food off the floor

Step two: no one is allowed to vomit or poo at or on the table.

Step three: food is transported from plate to mouth and nowhere else.

Step four: cutlery is used for more than just drumming practice.

Step five: Open cups

Step six: open hostilities (we hope to wait till they are 13 to start this bit).

Ooow, the list in the OP is way way too stressful and unreasonable to try and impose on a 22mo, surely?

I think just letting them enjoy food is the most important thing at that age 0- they learn to socialise politely when they understand it and want to copy grown-ups.

And positive affirmation is the only way to stop meal times being a tense battleground. praise for using cutlery, praise for eating nicely, ignore most other things.

of course 2 yos can use their fingers!

Apparently not everyone undresses their children when they eat chocolate dessert.

DD (3) wanted to have her friend over for lunch and she arrived with her mother, had lunch and when it came to dessert, DD asked, 'do we have to take our clothes off...'

I think it's crazy to associate meals with tension for adults and misery for children.

On the other hand, you have to start early if you want to end up with children you can enjoy a meal with. You shouldn't expect too much of toddlers, though. About 15 minutes is reasonable for a meal. Fingers are fine, imo, with praise for efforts to use a fork and spoon. Hold cup or glass with both hands. Encourage use of a napkin to wipe their own hands and faces. Encourage them to put their own napkin in the bin when they get up. I have my DCs help with setting the table and clearing away. Positive affirmation really is the way to go, I agree with Blu.

Best way to avoid getting involved in an unhappy dynamic of kids playing up and adults reacting while everyone is hungry and longing for a few minutes of peace is to watch the DCs and ask them if they're finished and want to get down when they start squirming, playing with food, asking for dessert, etc. Then require them to stay away from the table when they get down, and go play quietly elsewhere, with no bothering of people still eating or chatting allowed.

yep, you are all right.

but i just feel like such a permissive parent when around (otherwise fab) ILs.

need to trust instinct.

still - how do i deal with integrating my way of doing things with SILs and MILs?

don;t want to undermine SIL's work with her kids.

also when we are eating at MILs i am mindful that we should be at least trying to respect things that are important to her. she does have high standards gets quite stressed when kids eating. i think if SIL not there, then i need to be true to myself and let dd get down and eat what she wants.

but when SIL there too... god. i dont know. i do not engage with the trying to get dd to eat everything thing, but the staying at the table so darn hard. and miserable.

I think it's unreasonable to make children sit quietly at the table for a long stretch like that. Maybe a little pep talk with your DC beforehand, about needing to sit at the table? Or maybe allowing your DD to come and cuddle quietly on your lap while the endless chatting is going on? How often do these gruesome dinners happen?

i didn't have any rules - jeez they only been on the planet not even two years!

as long as mine ate food - that was good enough for me - the rest comes later - so much didderence between 22 mo and A 4 yr old

That all sounds mad! I have a very spirited 25 month old. She is just learning please and thank you, very good at eating with cutlery and eats well when she's interested, not keen on staying at the table when she's finished. Playing with food, well, she's a baby, she plays with food. Asking to get down from the table and thanking whoever cooked is just barmy at anything like that age. Are your inlaws seriously expecting your 23 month old to do that?

I'm afraid, while respecting the inlaws' ways, I wouldn't be trying to bring my child up in line with my SIL. Ignore what SIL is doing and concentrate on your dd. Although tbh, it sounds like a miserable experience all round. Children do learn but starting stupidly early is pointless, miserable and unfair on the little ones just doing what little ones do.

Yes, there really is a huge difference. I think the nephews and nieces who behave so well probably weren't half as docile at 2. I'd do my best to avoid those dinners, though, if at all possible.

DS3 is nearly 3

My expectations

1. Don't climb on the table while people are eating

1. Don't climb under the table and stab it with his fork

1. Don't reach over and try and eat his older brother's dinners

1. Don't wave fork around so wildly that food goes everywhere

1. If he really isn't going to sit at the table to eat to sit down still in the chair and eat.

When mine were toddlers - my sole concern was that they enjoyed their food and ate it (they were fussy and resistant and it took a lot of work to get them to eat a wide variety of food) - other than that, I cared not a jot

Very relaxed,

• DCs have certain times where I would like them to practice using knife and fork.
• otherwise, DCs can eat with hands if they want.
• Mess is cleaned up by child, excessive mess is discouraged.
• DCs do not need to ask permission to leave table.
• DCs ok to say they do not like food politely

• DCs can leave table when finished without asking permission - they are not slaves! Dont bring your children in line with SIL, her children have been conditioned to obey rules at the table, that is very different to good manners! I did it through fear as a child, it had nothing to do with good manners.

op - forgot to say they do not have higher expectations - they have a greater need to control their children.

The 'rules' for our 3 are :

stay at the table until everyone has finished
you don't start pudding until everyone has finished their main course
no pudding if they don't eat most of their main course
eat with a knife and fork unless finger food
they have to try something BEFORE they decide they don't like it

We started this as soon as they were big enough to have meals at the table with us (ie after the baby mush stage) and so that's all they have ever known and are fine with it.

I don't think we are that unreasonable and it means we get to have really nice family meals rather than rushing our food as they are off getting upto no good playing.

DD is only 18mths. She sits with us throughout mealtimes at home but long dinners out will sometimes sit on a lap playing with a toy or colouring etc after a while, during coffee etc or between meals if its taking a while.

She always says Thank you when given her plate.

Shes encouraged to use her fork and spoon but finds hands easier.

She says done when shes finished and clears up any food on the table that shes dropped.

We dont always have pudding at home so she never expects something sweet as a reward.

Never really had a problem of refusing food as she eats almost everything in sight!!

Generally when eating out we get lots of comments on how well behaved she is. I think my bag full of Distractions/toys helps!!

DD is 3.5. I expect her to:

• Try to use knife, fork and spoon for at least part of the meal (she obviously has to use a spoon for yoghurt or soup but I'm not too worried if she wants to pick up chips in her fingers)

• Ask nicely (please and thank you) if she wants more of something or for someone to get her some mayo etc

• Ask before she leaves the table

• Try at least one bite of everything on her plate

and

• Eat what I consider to be a reasonable amount of food (this doesn't have to be a huge portion, just not two bites of cheese or whatever)

She has never yet tried to climb on the table but if she had I would certainly have concentrated on that one before worrying about spoons etc!

She gets fruit or yoghurt for pudding usually but if I can see she's made a really good effort to eat something she doesn't like but knows I want her to eat like broccoli or whatever we have ice cream or a square of chocolate afterwards.

Oh yes, and if she deliberately makes a mess on the table it is her responsibility to clean up after herself (with some help).

I would never make a child of her age or younger sit at the table while adults had seconds of pudding etc unless they wanted to stay there and talk etc. Maybe by about school age, she might be capable of that but she isn't now and I'd rather listen to her playing quietly than listen to her whinging because she's bored of sitting still.

I think your ILs have v high expectations of the children, tbh.

ds (just about to turn 3) knows not to do 'silly eating' (ie spitting, opening mouth/flicking food) but does need to be reminded. We say we always have to try one mouthfull but are not too anal about whether he eats or not (I'll try some gentle persuasion if I think he's hungry but just wants to play). He is supposed to ask to get down and is not allowed to get up and down from the table all the time (ie 2 mouthfulls run off to play back for a mouthfull). I would not make him sit whilst adults finish.... Your sil kids are that bit older, so it's ok for you to have different rules (ok anyway, but you could use this argument to back your diff stance up ifykwim)

We aim for with DD1 3.6...

ask politely if there is something you want
keep your mouth shut while chewing (she picked a showing chewed food thing from a friend!)
sit down while eating (on chair NOT table!)