OK - Had enough. What do I do with dd2

[treedelivery]

Bit long but don't want to Op by stealth.

This concerns my dd2 [1yo] sleep patterns.

DD1 took quite a bit of training really. We did pick up put down, she was never left to cry, but we never coslept and she always always slept in her cot. It took months and moths of sitting in her room, in the dark, eating bread and butter for dinner. We did it though and she is now a really good sleeper who enjoys her bed.

DD2 started crying at birth and never stopped. SHe spent 6 weeks sleeping wither on me, on boob, on Dh shoulder, or in bed with us. It is true. She maybe had less than 10 independant sleeps.

We went on to discover at 6 months she is really quite badly dairly intolerant. She was screaming in agony and I am glad we gave her the physical attention she needed to cope.

So the child pretty much spent the first 6 months of her life in agony. Poo was agony, wind was asony, burping made her shake, it was awful. Really truly awful. She was hardly ever put down becasue she cried. I had to hold her when I was on the loo, cooking, cleaning...driving made your ears bleed. Truly I am not laying it on thick. I have witnesses!! She once screamed for 3.5 hours in the car, once for 2.5 - and often for and hour as my family is an hour away.

So now here we are. Now about 6 months pain free due to dairy free diet and formula [stopped bfing in sept at 8 months]

She will sleep nowhere but in our arms or in our bed - but even then cuddled in. We are starting to see a bit of routine, which is an improvement.

up 6.30 to 9am, but need to be woken at 7.30am for school run.
Starts chuntering and demanding to be held about 8am
Back from school run and goes to sleep on my chest about 9.30-10.00am.
I sit with her asleep till about 11.30-12.00noon
[If I move or put her down she wakes up within about 2 mins]
Lunch
Sleep in same way about 1pm
Wake her 2.30pm for school run [by moving out of bed and putting her down].

If we go out in the day she might go to sleep in the pushchair after a few hours. Only until it stops moving, then she is up again.

2.30-6.00pm spent trying to feed her and dd1, playing with dd1 etc. She chunters and follows me about, or cries to be held.

DH gets in at 6.00. He takes dd1 and does bed. I take dd2 to bed and she sleeps on me.

7.30-8 I'm starving and put her down to eat/wsh up/laundry, so she wakes up

Up till 10-01.00 am overtired and unable to settle.

Wakes on and off overnight, but usually cuddles back in and drifts off.

Now this is better, because at least there is a pattern. But it does need...er.....tweaking.

What would you do?

Oh. Very very long.

Sorry!

Medication. That sounds great

Certainly I have enough energy for giving meds, a complicated sleep solution requiring wil power is less certain!

Well done for reading even some of it!

My mum will often take her. She can sometimes rock her in the pram, but bubba simply wakes up when the rockign stops

Do you think if I just left her she would just stop crying? Or would it just damage her, she is one and has only ever known the security of being answered. If you see what I mean.

I sort of see her as a bit broken anyway, she cried so much and really had it pretty bad up to 6 months, and especially when very young.

I think you should consider the medication, at least ask and see what your gp thinks. I would also go see a cranial osteopath as she probably has residual tension headaches from lots of screaming.

I would also suggest you read about neuro development therapy. My dd that screamed for 6 months due to undiagnosed acid reflux ended up with retained moro reflex and a couple of other retained reflexes I think because developmentally she didn't do anything much for that first year due to being in pain etc. I put up with her sleep issues until she was 4 until she was treated by a cranial osteopath and then a NDD therapist - which I'd visited them much much sooner......

www.inpp.org.uk/index.php

To break her habits I think you will have to o pick up put down and I think it could be a long hard slog. Can your Mum take your eldest and your dh take time off work and committ yourselves to trying it for at least 5 days to see if there is significant improvement? I would see it as showing her that now she is better than she was it's okay for her to sleep without being held. I would still put her to bed in your bed but not being held IYSWIM

i would go to the gp about it as you need a break and possibly some time to do other things.

a friend of mine (also a gp) suggested using phenergan once when i went on a long haul trip with dd (at the time aged 18 mths) as it is a sedative. though she did give a word of caution - it can lead to more activity rather vice versa. it is available over the counter although because of recent guideline changes i'm not sure if you can buy it for under 6 year olds. but do talk to your dr or health visitor for some more practical support.

Oh you are so nice to rad it all and come up with ideas. Thank you.

She has seen a chiro a few times. There is no cranial body for £50 miles - adn I am loathe to drive with her . But I will reconsider this after hearing about retained reflexes. I'm going to research these and look at your link properly.

Do you think do it in our bed rather than cot then [the pick up put down]

And seriously, where do we get the oomph to do it? I'd need a pre and post spa break!
I guess dh would need to take some holiday or something.

Oh Tree! Poor you and poor DD2, she is just frightened of sleep it seems. Don't know what to suggest but there is some good advice here and didn't want you to think I hadn't read it.

btw, you are a saint, I would completely have lost my sense of humour and probably sense of self months ago.

Does she still cry for an hour etc in car or has that improved? If it has then it could be time to try the sleep training?

Can only apologise for typos

Thank you Beasknees.

Oh Tree, you poor poor thing.

You are right, you really do need to sort this out now for your own sanity if nothing else. You have been such a patient loving Mum all through some really tough times, but you need to think about yourself now as well as your girls.

I don't think they would prescribe Phenergan to a 12 month old, also my SIL used it on my nephew for long haul flights and it made him hyperactive.

I do think you should try the GP though. The NHS sleep clinics Lenni mentioned sound great. If I were you I would go to the GP, try being firm that you want a referral and if that didn't work, sit there and sob until they give in and refer you.

SleighGirl's suggestion re INPP is interesting. We were looking into it for ds1 as he seems to have some retained reflexes, probably down to how his birth went.

In the meantime, could you get hold of a battery powered swing for her? Just a thought as you said she sleeps until the buggy stops rocking. If she would sleep in it for an hour or so at least you would get some time to yourself. Dd still loves hers and is nowhere near growing out of it, so H should still get plenty of use out of one. When she's really fighting sleep I just rack it up to top speed and put the vibration on as well and she just can't fight it anymore.

I will have another think and see if I can come up with any more suggestions.

Hi books. We keep trying to attach her to things. She has taken to throwing them at us Have to laugh really.

She is attached to her dummy, which I am trying to make a bedtime only thing [like it was for dd1] Trouble is it buys me another 10 mins in the morning/eve school rushes so it's tempting!

Thanks for reading books.

Am torn with the cot/bed thing.

Do we think pick up/put down then?

I shudder just thinking what we went through with dd3 but you've had it far worse!

If she is used to co-sleeping in your bed actually being cuddled. I would break it into stages

1. Sleeping in your bed just being touched by you/next you
2. Sleeping in your bed alone
3. Sleeping next to your bed perhaps in a cot???
4. Moving cot into a different room.

I think the big key is her learning it's okay to sleep without being held but I think she needs all the security of it being your bed etc It's a huge change after a year of being held.

With PUPD you could probably adapt it to being with your hand on her chest (PD) and being cuddled in (PU) so at least you can be horizontal at the same time.

Def a spa day at the end of it all and def lots of support whilst going through it.

treedelivery I just want to post my sympathy.

There are good ideas on here and I have none to add, but I just wanted to post in support of you and say hats off to you for still soundign quite sane and someone with yes! a sense of humour.

I would have gone insane quite some time ago with your situation!

Can you rule out pain etc? If its a sleep problem, I can definitely recommend this.

If nothing else it teaches you about sleep patterns and what is normal/abnormal. It gave me lots of confidence firstly with making noise once DD started sleeping properly and was asleep(so deep she couldn't hear anything) and now it helps me recognise bad habits we fall into after illness and crack down on them quicker.

not at all perfect here, but informed enough to do a lot better than I do.

good luck!

You are all so nice I am actually crying. I haven't cried about this yet. Odd isn't it, when you finally reach the wall.

I like those stages Sleighgirl. I might need to write them out and stick them up in the bedroom! I have puzzled how to do pu/pd with her when there is no way of putting her down without her either her standing straight up and bopping about, or totally melting down.
The hand on chest/cuddled in might be the way forward.

Thank you Clary. It is good to hear acknowledgement.

Ay curumba.

She's really lovely and giggles and smiles all the time. Unless there is sleep stuff going on or she is alone.

Hi there,
I totally empathise with your situation. I think we've just had a very similar year!!
Ds is nearly 14 months now and things are getting better but it was so hard in the beginning. Basically ds took all naps on me, wouldn't be put down and we co-slept from 4 months. (The first 4 months were a huge stuggle at bedtimes - I often sat up with ds asleep on my lap)(not good - or very safe come to think of it!)He would scream in his pram, scream if I put him down. Really the only place he was quiet and happy was on my lap. We have only just got use of a car and he screams in his carseat! Gah!

Ds is also very dairy allergic as well as egg, nuts, soya, cod(!), wheat to name the ones I can remember! But I don't think that really was the cause of his clingyness. (Have cut it out of my diet and mad no difference)

Anyway here we are at 14 months and things are so much better. (some people would not think so but compared to the last year...)
Basically I have put a double mattress on the floor of his room. I feed him to sleep at night and he will stay asleep for a good 3/4 hours - usually lasts until I go up. Then I sleep with him and he has the odd boob and we get up around 7.30/ 8ish. Major breakthrough for us has been ds being able to settle without boob - often unlatches then turns away WOOHOO! Anyway this is working for naps too. For the last 4 weeks I have has 1-2 hours off while he naps after lunch - unheard of! But the change seems to be that he is ready and wants to sleep. I think not forcing him has made him come to his own conclusion that sleeps quite nice actually.

Sorry for the long post. I hope things do improve for you soon. We have such a long way to go but I do feel like things are moving in the right direction. I want to have another baby at some point in the not too distant and I don't know how that will pan out!! But I do think I'm due a laid back one next time

I had this with dd's sleep. Cargirl told me to go to a cranial osteopath, which I did and it was the best thing I have ever done in my life.

During the treatment she relaxed in my arms, and smiled at the osteopath. On the way home she fell asleep in the car without any of the violent twisting and arching she had previously done. That night I put her down to sleep in her cot, I had never ever been able to do this before. She was ten months old.

It wasn't a total miracle cure, she still woke and had to be fed back off to sleep, but she often went for three or four hour stretches.

It might not be helpful to you, but it is worth a fifty mile drive to find out!

Hope you feel better soon, I know how crippling lack of sleep feels.

Get theeself to your GP Tree - demand some help with this - which will certainly involve being referred to someone. I'll pursue my friend, had not realised it was getting to end of tether stage, but how on earth you didn't reach that point yonks ago is beyond me.

DD's sleep was rubbish but not on the same planet as H's sleep ishoos - we found you had to change something to make an improvement and often there was a day or so of battles but afterwards there was improvement. There were a lot of backward steps too. We started with the target of getting to 11pm with her in the cot and then gradually found she was sleeping until 1am and by the time she was 18mo she was mostly sleeping until 5am without coming into our bed.

If I were you I think I would start with trying to improve daytime sleep since it matters less if it goes badly and you are likely to be more rational than in the night iykwim. I'd do pupd for naps and try to ensure she is napping in the cot by putting her down as soon as she is sleepy and standing with your hand on her back, chest or something else reassuring as she (hopefully) goes to sleep. Even if you stand there for 30 minutes and she doesn't sleep eventually it would become a routine perhaps?? That would give you the potential to be able to move away from her gradually as you did with DD1 - we are still at the reassuring DS as he falls asleep stage, I can't yet leave him awake, but can occasionally leave him sleepy now, it is such a gradual process learning to sleep.

In the night I make sure there is no light, no communication, nothing other than holding them close for comfort and dummy/milk if needed. I blank any attempts to engage me. Even if I sit in silence in the dark for 3 hours holding DS at least I feel rested more than dealing with him wriggling about, chatting etc. If DS is continually demanding my attention and is cosleeping then I go and sleep in his room or we take him back to his room and hold him in the chair instead since drawing that line in the sand seems to give him the message that night is for sleep.

I'm rivalling your OP, I'll stop waffling.

Right.

Cranial - check.
Will do. She did see one at about a month, who said she had tension but nothing too awful [easy delivery really] but it may be much worse or something new.

barbareebaahumbug - bless you. You too! So what major things chaned, you got the mattress, but mainly you think he has matured and led it himself? Any improvements we have had have been totally down to dd2 too.

I'm ok for sleep overall, as I'm on mat leave still. Another 5 weeks. Then it gets serious.

TBH, it's more time I want. Just some time to wee and shower and clean the bathroom.

I look like shite though

Sounds like you have really been through the mill - you have my every sympathy.

I don't really have any great practical advice to top what others have suggested. However have you ever come across the automatic pram rockers like this. It's the sort of product that raises a few eyebrows, however in your situation I can imagine anything which buys you a free half hour may be a godsend? (Price is a bit though)

Dh just tiptoed in with a sleeping bubba, put her on the sheepskin in her cot and 'ping' she hopped up to standing and started crying. Unbelievable. He hadn't even stood up straight.

Lenni - problem with it is she won't even lie down in the cot. Determined young woman.

I have to go, dh left house at 6am and got back at 8.30 and hasn't even had a drink. Better go relieve him of his daughter.

Thank you so so so much. Even for reading it.

I will mull over going to GP. What will they say? Controlled crying and review in 6 months? I think I'd deck them! I nearly did quite seriously scream at the man who told me 'some babies just like to be held' when I went with the dairy intolerant demon screaming child. oooh that man. [anger]

Tree, we still have dd in the bedside crib we got off ebay (mainly because her room still isn't ready for her ) Its bigger than a normal crib, but smaller than a standard cot.

DD stopped sleeping through when she started teething and we had to wean her off being cuddled to sleep and sleeping with her head on my chest. We went from having her directly alongside (as in able to wriggle across to me) to putting the spare cot rails between me and her (so that they stick up about 5 inches). Then if she wouldn't settle or woke in the night I'd sort of stick my arm out across the bars and put my hand around her waist so that she felt cuddled, but didn't actually lift her. Then we went to a gentle hand on her tum. Oh and we shushed as well so that she associated the sound with settling. She also has dummies at night, which I have become a dab hand at replacing when she stirs so that she doesn't actually fully wake up when she disturbs. She's pretty good now and we just have to shush and put her dummy in if she stirs these days unless there is something really bothering her (eg teeth, tummy etc).

That said, the little darling is currently trashing my living room after spending the whole afternoon sleeping in her pushchair while I walked to town to go to the opticians with ds2 and then falling asleep again on the school run.

Tree - DS won't lie down in his cot either. During the day he has to nap in his pushchair since he is strapped in, otherwise there is no chance. I can only settle him in his cot by putting him down sleepy and pinning him down calming him down in the cot before standing there for however long it takes him to fall asleep.

Go to the GP and see what they say, if you don't like it then you don't have to do it at end of day. And I think any reasonable person could see that CC isn't the solution in H's case.