Teaching kindness to animals

[Numbat]

You know, I've actually found something I agree with JBR about! This was on the Jamie Bulger thread; JBR was saying how someone shouldn't let her daughter chase pigeons as this was "cruel to animals". OK, it's not quite cruelty, but I've been thinking about the attitude behind it and I'm with JBR on this one. We should teach our kids to be considerate of all those weaker than ourselves, from pigeons right through to other humans.

Actually Jbr I thought all bread wasn't too healthy for ducks - or any birds - though again I'm not sure why. I'd be pleased if you could give wholemeal as it's a cheap day out with a toddler that gives them loads of pleasure isn't it?! I'm having a boring Sunday and dd is asleep so I'll endeavour to find out now and get back to you...!

Have been trying but can only find info on bread being bad for ducks because it fills them up without having any great nutrional value, and that ducks can get to rely on this as their main source of food - doesn't mention wholemeal... Anyway, nap time over so signing off...!

Thanks Lizzer. I do like weekends. Jack is in nursery but even when he wasn't I preferred to keep weekends for leisurely things eg swimming, the park etc. I didn't want him thinking life was about leisure all the time. He used to whine that so and so went swimming, blah blah blah but usually the parents of those children didn't work. Even at his nursery they only do leisure stuff once a week.

That's off the point a bit about being kind to animals. There is a wildlife/water fowl park near my parents so we are hoping to get up there and go one weekend. And hopefully there won't be any children running around chasing birds near deep water. If there are, I won't intervene this time!

Jbr you said you 'don't want your son thinking life was about leisure all the time' - how old is he????if he's still at nursery I guess he's still a babe, if he can't have fun now, then when?!

We have 4 cats, who are all good mousers and we don't have a problem with mice in our house or sheds. What I do hate is walking down the street to nearly do a double back flip because some lazy bugger has let their dog dumph on the pavement, people can get really nasty infections and even go blind because of dog dumph.

Respect for animals should be taught from an early age, I cannot abide animal cruelty in any form.

Sorry Binza, I wasn't referring to anyone on this thread when I was talking about irresponsible dog owners. The fact that you are all on this thread talking about it is proof that you are all responsible pet owners/animal lovers. I just thought that whilst everyone was moaning about cats, someone should moan about dogs too. I have never stood in cat poo (to my knowledge) but have lost count of the times I've had to scrape dog poo off my shoe.
Plus, as dogs tend to be bigger, so are their poos. I guess it should be easy for dog owners to clean up after their pets, but I guess a cat owner can't follow their cat around every day picking up their poo!
I don't know if cat poo poses the same danger to dog poo or not, there just seems to be more of it around!

He does have fun. But, I don't think kids should be at the beach, or at swimming or at the park or wherever every day. That's why he goes to nursery, even though I only work at nights. He does have fun at nursery but he's learning as well. I am not going to spoil him taking him out every day. It would be one hell of a shock if he didn't go there before he goes to school.

Lisav, I appreciate what you're saying but why should cat owners take the opinion "I can't follow my cat everywhere to clean up after it".I have at least seven cats around me who regularly use my garden as their own private toilet (and to my knowledge cat shit causes blindness in children if they are not wormed regularly) therefore my children are at risk and more so because the bloody stuff is hidden and I'm only aware of it when my little boy has either stood in it or dug it up. I have a damn great dog who I'm sure would do damage to said cats if he got hold of them,they sneak in at night I suspect, so I have to keep a close eye on him to avoid this happening. I can immagine the hue and cry that would go on if he did kill one.But why should I cutail his activities because of someone elses irresponsible attitude towords their pet?This is what I'm trying to say about cats and their owners. They can just go where they like and do what they like and nobody has to take responsibility for them.The only reason there isn't cat crap all over the pavements is because they can't get through the concrete! Cat owners should be just as responsible for their pets mess as dog owners.

Binza, I understand where you are coming from and sympathise as we have had cats pooing in our garden but what do you propose to solve the problem?

Yes, me too Binza - how does one stop this? We have quite a lot of visiting cats in our garden and although I find the mess deplorable I'd sooner not have some of their owners hopping over our fence to clear up.
We are experimenting with citrus oil and cayenne pepper in the soil, one of which smells repugnant to them, apparently, and one of which delivers a sting to their little pink bottoms.
I will also have the water pistol at the ready during my summer break.
Have you had a go at deterring the cats? I am amazed that just having a large dog around has not put a lot of them off.

PS Forgot to say that cat poo is also dangerous to pregnant women and their unborn baby as well as to children. I know that in France they blithely advise mums-to-be to keep patriotically eating their delicious unpasteurised cheeses, while insisting that cats are kept out of the family home for the entire pregnancy.

Since when were cats frightened of dogs? That is the biggest Tom & Jerry non-starter ever. Dogs are usually intimidated by cats. As for stopping cats pooing in the garden, we tried some of the gel stuff (available in Homebase) in the flower beds which was quite effective but the smell is so strong and vile that it makes you think twice about being in the garden yourself.
Most effective treatment I have found is chasing cats away - however you have to be around to do this. Cat poo is very dangerous stuff and should never be touched by a pregnant woman or children.

Thanks for all your messages of support.I wish I could find an answer to my problem. I have tried all of the things suggested with poor results.I do believe that these electronic things that emit a high pitched sound are said to be good but I'm loathed to spend a lot of money on one incase it doesn't and also a part of me thinks why the hell should I have to fork out for it they're NOT MY CATS! The dog does shoot off down the garden tearing up my newly laid turf if he sees one but they then just hop on the wall and sneer at him. Recently a neighbour got two new kittens who come and sit on the kitchen window ledge and he goes beserk at them but then I daren't let him out as it would be dead kitty for sure as they are too young or thick to realise he's not joking. I would gladly spray them with water if I could ever catch them but it's a long garden with lots of hiding places and by the time I've opened the back door they're long gone. I'll have to stop now as I can feel my blood pressure rising at the thought of all this. If I ever succeed I'll be posting my secrets of banishing cats right here.One final remark - for two years running a blackbird has carefully reared it's young in our ivy and for two years running I've had to pick up the dead fledglings a couple of days after they've left the nest -CATS. I bet she's as p**d off as I am.

Jbr, you will be proud of me! I visited a wildlife park today and saw a boy (looked about 7 or 8) really taunting one of the birds ( don't ask me what type - it was a large thing, big neck - like that helps!) Anyway he was running side to side as the bird was trying to get past. I thought of this thread at once (Gah!Have been OD-ing on Mumsnet I fear!)and so said to the offending youngster "Er, I think you're scaring it" in a mild mannered tone, don't know what I'd have done if he'd answered back with "so what" or the like. Fortunately he ran away, probably back to Mum. I really don't think he had any idea what he was really doing to the creature but I'm pleased I made the point. Also glad his parents weren't around, otherwise I'd probably not been so brave. Still I feel I've done my animal rights bit for the week...

LOL Lizzer! It's debatable that he didn't realise what he was doing though.

On a different note, we've got spiders in our house at the moment. 2 in the bathroom and one on the kitchen window sill!

In many Australian towns and rural shires it has been a legal necessity for some years that dogs not be allowed to roam around ourside of their yards if not on a leash. Dogs must be microchipped so that if they are caught roaming around the pound/vet etc can identify the owner and send them a nice fine for allowing their dog out (I think they get a warning or two before the fine). No such laws have been in place for cats and cats have been free to roam around crapping in peoples gardens and sandpits and killing wildlife. Cats DO hunt for sport as well as food, this is well documented in Australia where they are responsibly for causing entire species to become endangered. Cats DO learn to move quietly and hunt with any number of bells attached to their collar (also well documented). Cat poo is dangerous in that cats can spread several species of worms to humans that can lead to larval visceral migrans (one consequence of this can be blindness) and cat poo can spread toxoplasma, which can cause miscarriage, birth defects and serious illness to people who's immune system is not up to scratch. (Toxoplasma spread by cats living in hay/feed sheds can also lead to miscarriage in cattle and horses, I have seen this personally).

Fortunately, many shires/towns in Australia have decided to risk the wrath of the cat-lovers and have introduced laws for keeping cats that are similar to dogs. Cats must be microchipped, cats are not allowed to be out of their yard without being in the direct presence of their owner and cat owners will be fined if their cats are allowed to roam freely. There is a lot of information available to cat owners about how to cat-proof their yards so the cats can not get out. This is possible, I have seen it and according to animal behaviourists is not cruel to the cats! Cat owners need to take the same responsibility for their animals as dog owners have been required to do for many, many years.

As an aside....it is also legal to set possum traps for cats in some areas and then take the trapped cat to the pound (obviously it was outside its yard if it was caught in someone else's yard! Before you all freak out completely....they don't hurt the possum/cat just hold them in the cage for a few hours until the person who set the trap comes to collect them. These traps are used extensively for relocating possums in rooves and for research for estimating the numbers of various native animals in a specific region etc.

Jbr - so what are you gonna do with the spiders? Do you let them be? I couldn't do that, I'd have to get rid of them. No matter where they are in the house, you can bet your life that by bedtime they will be right above my bed - looking down as if to say "wait until you turn the light off, then I'll leap right onto your face". I read an awful fact the other day, that in your lifetime you will have devoured 18 spiders in your sleep. Isn't that just DISGUSTING!!!

Sorry to hear of your cat problem Binza. I've never had a problem with cats, our neighbours don't seem to be too big on them. But I did hear that they don't like thorny plants for obvious reasons, so maybe surrounding your garden with lovely rose bushes?! I think that if I had that problem, especially with young children around, I would have a word with the said neighbours and mention 'environmental health'. If that fails, then do contact the environmental health, they may be able to do something for you, like limit the number of cats your neighbour can have.

My sister's got a problem with slugs in her house at the minute. She found 2 big ones in the kitchen sink! Urrgh! I use salt, but does anyone know of a friendlier way to get rid of them?

Ugh don't! I once read about a man who got this strange lump on his arm. It was really itchy. He had to have an operation on it, and when they opened him up, he had a spider and baby spiders living in it!! It was in a woman's magazine and assuming that it was true, it's horrible!

Binza, as a cat owner I really don't know what more I can do.... I worm them regularly, they are microchipped, they wear really loud bells on their collars, they get innoculated each year.... but I can't follow them everywhere to clear up after them. Let's face it, if you suddenly saw me climbing over your garden fence, plastic bag in hand, wouldn't your first thought be to lock the door and call the police? (Not that I am hideously scary or anything).
Jbr and LisaV, you've really gotta stop reading Chat magazine! (only joking, but I used to work on the women's weeklies and you don't want to believe everything you read... plus that spider story did the rounds in the playground when I was at junior school and that is going back a long way!)

The RSPCA inspector told me cats shouldn't wear collars because they get their feet trapped in them and hang themselves. The officer told me this after I ran up to report an injured cat. It turns out the injury was an old one and I felt I had wasted his time. But you don't know what to do for the best sometimes.

It seems I shall have to go to the other side of the world to get any peace from cats. Australia sounds the ideal place except I'm not big on spiders or snakes! However if they can make sensible rules that are working for both cat and dog owners then why can't we?
The advice about contacting environmental health is okay except it's not one neighbour with seven cats but more like seven neighbours with one or two each and as I never catch any of the sods at it I don't know who to report or complain to. The one's that I think are mostly responsible have an equally liberal view to child rearing/safety and I honestly think my complaints would fall on deaf-ears. I wonder where I could purchase a possum trap........?

Jbr - mmm the collar quandry. I spent three months filming at an RSPCA hospital and saw some horrendous injuries on cats that had gone missing only to be found badly injured, having managed to get one leg through their collar. However, the vets there still thought it was better to have a collar with an id tag than not, simply because it helps them contact the owner if a cat is brought in. It appeared that it was the type of collar that was to blame. Steer clear of those with a solid, relatively thick bit of elastic between the buckle and rest of the collar - what you want is one with a very fine thread of elastic between buckle and collar that will break easily if a cat gets caught by it, or slips a leg through.

Binza - how about putting shale over your garden? It keeps the slugs away, doesn't look too bad and works for cats too, as it's very uncomfortable to walk on.
I'm presuming that they poo on your flower beds and no-where else? Obviously you wouldn't want to cover your whole garden with shale!

Another spider story for you that IS true as it was in the papers a few years back. This lady bought an exotic pot plant from M&S. She got it home and a couple of days later her husband noticed a spider carcass in the bottom. Realising that it was no ordinary spider, they took it to M&S who sent it to those insect people (ectomologists?). They immediately sent people round to the lady's house to begin searching. The carcass was that of a poisonious male spider who had been half eaten - probably by a female spider who had mated with him. The problem was...where was the more dangerous female spider?
They eventually found it nesting in the duvet cover with a clutch of eggs!

So the moral is - always check your pot plants!