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Parenting

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Teaching kindness to animals

91 replies

Numbat · 27/06/2001 11:10

You know, I've actually found something I agree with JBR about! This was on the Jamie Bulger thread; JBR was saying how someone shouldn't let her daughter chase pigeons as this was "cruel to animals". OK, it's not quite cruelty, but I've been thinking about the attitude behind it and I'm with JBR on this one. We should teach our kids to be considerate of all those weaker than ourselves, from pigeons right through to other humans.

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Jodee · 27/06/2001 11:42

Yes, definitely. I feel awful if I tread on an ant! I'm not a great fan of pigeons, but if one lands in the road in front of me when I'm driving I tend to slam on the brakes or swerve to avoid it, I couldn't bear the thought of hitting it (my passengers don't always thank me though!)
I agree children should be taught from a very young age to be kind to animals and other people.

Lizzer · 27/06/2001 12:49

Yes, I'm sure that if you are taught to treat everything with respect it stands you in good stead for the future. But that said, there are a lot of cultures where animals are treated awfully without a second thought. How many times have you been away on holiday and see local children hurting stray or wild animals as a 'game', without adults chastising them for it...?

Jbr · 27/06/2001 17:40

Thanks! I don't know how anyone can stand there and let that happen! The case was this woman was standing smoking with her friend and the little girl was just running about - no reins - and chasing the pigeons, near a road. I said something and got told to mind my own business, and not in the most polite manner either. 2 words, 3 f's basically! So I just said when something happens to her don't go crying to the police about it.

I have found in general adults are more nasty than children though. The most you can get for animal cruelty I believe is 6 months in prison and a £5000 fine with a lifetime ban. If someone didn't care about animals though, would a ban bother them? And the 6 months automatically gets halved. In fact in any situation, if the sentence is under a certain amount offenders do half and if it's over a certain amount they do 2/3! It doesn't rely on "good behaviour" either, it is automatic.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

Star · 27/06/2001 17:54

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Candy · 27/06/2001 19:14

I'm with JBR on this I must say - I hate seeing kids chase birds and my daughters have never been allowed to; to be honest I don't think they'd even contemplate it now. They are not "stupid birds" - the fact of the matter is that they are much smaller even than small children and even if they are "stupid" it's no excuse - does star therefore think it's also ok for her kids to chase mentally handicapped people? On a lighter note - I am totally in favour of kindness to animals and would make only one exception to this - if my neighbour's cat uses my garden as a toilet again I'll be seriously tempted to employ a firework in an intimate part of its anatomy.

Bloss · 27/06/2001 19:54

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Jbr · 27/06/2001 20:22

Candy, I wouldn't laugh! Some of the kids in my area ARE horrible to people with learning difficulties. I really despair sometimes. We do have a so-called "special school" and the kids sometimes really young children, stand and give verbal abuse.

It's not really to do with this thread but I think if there weren't separate schools to start with the children would be used to seeing it. But then maybe they are just nasty, with equally nasty parents.

Star · 27/06/2001 20:24

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Candy · 27/06/2001 21:25

NO OF COURSE I DON'T THINK THESE PEOPLE ARE STUPID - I teach children with special educational needs. My point was that just because a creature is PERCEIVED as being less intelligent ("stupid" was YOUR word, Star, with reference to birds) doesn't give creatures who PERCEIVE themselves to be more intelligent the right to intimidate them. And I think as parents it's our duty to be teaching our children respect for other beings, apart, of course, from next door's cat!

Bloss · 27/06/2001 21:37

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Batters · 27/06/2001 21:46

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Willow2 · 27/06/2001 21:51

Yes, pigeons are disease carrying vermin.... but teaching kids from an early age to respect animals of all shapes and sizes is a good idea in my eyes. We live near Richmond park and last summer watched in disbelief as two American kids started to chase a small herd of deer. Their parents didn't do anything until we gave them an earful. Cruelty aside, I suspect they would have been a tad upset if their darling offspring had ended up gored on their summer vacation.... then again, maybe we should have just left them to it.

Jbr · 27/06/2001 22:41

I don't class being horrible to animals and people with disabilities as simply "mis-behaving" that's why. Not sitting down in a restaurant or screaming in a shop or whatever, is "mis-behaving". I could repeat half of the things these children say, but I won't.

Numbat · 28/06/2001 08:42

My concern in this isn't so much the pigeons' feelings: as Bloss says, they're probably pretty used to it and not really all that scared. It's the underlying attitude I don't wanht to encourage. It seems to me there's a sort of continuum from just thoughtlessly chasing or poking a living thing just to see what the reaction is (with no malice intended at all) to doing it consciously to enjoy the reaction of fear or pain, to teasing other kids, to bullying, all the way through (and here I'm going to get some backs up I know) to violence. Of course your average two-year-old means no harm when they chase pigeons, but that's the time to start teaching them to think about it.

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Sml · 28/06/2001 09:31

Star, I agree with you on the whole about pigeons, but please, don't suggest that the pigeons enjoy being chased. I'm sure they don't really care. I discourage my children from doing it, but I don't regard it that seriously because I can't see that much distress is being caused. The argument that animals enjoy being chased is one of the most obnoxious ones used to support hunting with dogs - I have heard a huntsman claim that a hare which screamed as the hounds caught it was screaming with pleasure in the chase!

Tigermoth · 28/06/2001 12:56

There's an awful lot of ground being covered here isn't there? Now were do I begin:

Firstly, I think it's far more cruel to, say, give a toddler a caged bird, and condone birds being caged, than it is to let a toddler run after some pigeons who are, lets face it, free to make an escape. I mean how many toddlers have you seen proudly brandishing a pigeon that they have just swiped from the park?

But lets take two toddler/pigeon situations: Firstly a wobbly-on-their-feet 18 month old. Secondly a fast, loud and lairy three and a half year old. If toddler number one took a few steps towards the pigeons I would not say 'no'. Pigeons being sociable, scavenging birds, are used to close proximity with people. I would not see my little toddler as a threat to them. If toddler number two ran after them however, I may well say no. Being bigger, faster and louder, I accept that my toddler some capacity to frighten a pigeon and, most importantly, was old enough to know it.

But it's not simply to do with the balance of power, toddler versus pigeon, is it? It's also to do with your toddler's behaviour and what you are prepared to tolerate.

Well, children are naturally curious aren't they? It's how they learn. In my experience, children want to touch, get up close to, and interact with most living things (spiders and snakes excepted). All that pleading for pet rabbits,hanging round the farmyard stables etc. So isn't it natural that if they see pidgeons running around, getting up close to humans as they do, they will want to copy them and run after them too? I mean I'm an adult and I've been quite upset by mauranding pigeons coming after me! Just try having a picnic in a pigeon-haunted park. If you are going to judge pigeons on human terms, then pigeons are birds that misbehave. What sort of example do they set?

As for more general misbehaving, Jbr, Numbat etc, I can quite see your reasoning that kindness to all living things should start from the earliest age. Yes it should. Who can argue with that? And Jbr I can quite see why you would want to intervene in the incident you describe, though to be honest I would have been more concerned with the fact that a young child was running freely by the road. Pigeons would have been a secondary worry.

Which brings me to a final point. You are trying to teach your toddler/young child to do a million things properly: eat with a spoon, use a potty, say please and thank you, sit nicely, stand still, keep their coat and hat on, hold hands, not walk on the road etc etc.

To my mind, not running after pigeons comes rather low on the list of desirables. Unless you want to spend all your time telling your toddler off, sometimes you have to compromise and let the less important things go. Not for ever, but for when they can take it in better.

And that is all I have to say on the subject for now.

Bells1 · 28/06/2001 13:11

Cheers Tigermoth! Our 23 month old has adored tottering around pigeon-filled squares in the past and I was beginning to worry that he was now on an inexorable course towards being cruel to animals...

Lisav · 28/06/2001 13:12

Well said Tigger - although I have a caged bird myself! - a parrot. Before I get slagged off for this let me just say that the parrot would not survive if I took him back to Brazil, he was hand-reared. And I only got him to save him from going to a dealer who bred them. He gets the freedom of the house, I never lock him in his cage, and my dd as a consequence loves birds and probably feels no need to chase them as she is so used to them flying across her head anyway.

But I do advocate kindness to animals.

Lisav · 28/06/2001 13:13

Sorry, I called you Tigger Tigermoth!

Marina · 28/06/2001 13:16

Tigermoth, why exclude spiders and snakes? Our son has recently developed a close interest in a woodlouse living in one of our patio pots and we have used this to try and encourage him to look, admire but not prod. I think a lot of younger children running after pigeons (as you say, sociable and greedy birds that like human company) are just longing to make friends and catch up.
Do you feel the same about caging gerbils etc by the way? I have often thought a hamster or something would be nice when he is quite a bit older, but would never have a bird.

Bloss · 28/06/2001 13:37

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Marina · 28/06/2001 13:53

Not like you do Bloss, although a lot of big green hairy spiders apparently recently jumped out of some roadworks near Windsor Castle. You don't think Australian republicans have encouraged them to tunnel all the way through from Canberra, do you?
I have a very big problem with spiders and creepy-crawlies generally and should have added my unselfish attempts to hide this fear to the "What am I proud of" thread. I have unfortunately had to mash a giant Euro-wasp in front of my son and felt guilty about this for several seconds.

Lisav · 28/06/2001 13:54

I hate all spiders! Snakes I don't mind, but spiders! However I don't tend to kill them as long as they co-operate and let me do 'the glass thing' with them. Otherwise I get dh to do the dirty deed for me.

Hate them, hate them! Urrgh!

Tigermoth · 28/06/2001 14:11

That's an interesting point you raised about gerbils, Marina. Would I let my son have one in a cage? Easy for me to say no because I don't like them. Hedging my bets, I would have to find out about a gerbil's preferences before allowing one in a cage in our house. I just can't imagine any creature would like to be placed in a clear plastic 'home' and stared at all day. And I wouldn't want to be clearing out the home of said creature. And as for the other option of letting them run free amongst our soft furnishings - forget it!

Bugsy · 28/06/2001 14:15

So what is our definition of cruelty here? I think as a nation we are over-sentimental about animals and are often guilty of cruelty by kindness. A high proportion of domestic pets are overfed to the point where it is detrimental to their health. Many pets are under exercised and kept in homes not suitable to their needs.
Also are those of us requiring cheaper meat guilty of cruelty because we have forced farmers to move to factory farming methods?
I don't think kids chasing pigeons is cruelty at all. They chase the pigeons because the pigeons always fly away. I chase cats when they are pooing in my back garden - is that cruel? I've held two jack russell terriers under water in a horse trough before to make them open their mouths and stop them killing each other - a passer by may have thought that was cruel. People who have their animals castrated or spayed - are they cruel? You have to judge each situation according to its merit.