How do you maintain an enthusiastic demeanor about your child's school play, when inwardly you HATE that it is nativity?

[nevergoogledragonbutter]

Ok, so i'm not religious. I'm personally somewhere halfway between atheism and humanism depending on whether i can see a difference between the two, a moment that comes and goes.

But, I have come to accept that we live in a country that teaches a 'broadly christian' approach after being initially a bit wtf to find that him going to a non-faith school actually doesn't mean we can avoid the subject.

I don't feel that taking him out of assembly would make any difference other than to make him feel different about something he's too young to understand.

But, it irritates me highly that he is taught bible stories at a non-faith school and it irritates me even more that he will be expected to re-enact the nativity story and spend the next 6 weeks learning his songs and lines.

And while i would dearly love to see my 5 year old sing and dance or say some lines, the experience is marred by the play being religious. i have to somehow look past the religious aspect.

I don't want my own beliefs to ruin what could be a very enjoyable thing for him to do with his friends.

Is it possible to keep my feelings hidden? Is that the appropriate way to deal with it?
Why can't they do something else that would be entertaining for everyone?

Well the problem is that millions of other people follow other faiths, and as they all believe they are right there are some contradictions going on there. And no I don't buy C S Lewis' line of if they are doing the right thing then obviously they are Christian really. That part of the Last Battle really got my goat (I know he has written some more intellectual arguments, but it's basically the same premise).

But then I am an aetheist because I understand the concept of faith, and I know I don't have it. And I don't feel bereft for the lack of it.

I object to religion at schools because at primary when it comes to Christianity children frequently aren't given the "some people called Christians believe" which would be fine, but much blunter messages. My dd has declared herself Christian entirely on the basis that "Father Christopher" says (blah blah) and "he has a bigger house than you (ergo he must be right). We did not know that sending them to the local primary (and deliberate avoiding the two Christian schools) would involve priests in any way shape or form!

Finally my sister is a vicar (well currently a chaplain), and some of her views are in my view very intolerant. As she feels she has a line to god that would deeply worry me if I thought they were god's views rather than her own. She is a lovely person and I suspect on the whole an excellent priest, but it is a position of huge influence, and that really worries me.

Well nooka surprisingly there are an awful lot of people who are Christian who are flawed people and not perfect.

But I do think at the very core of the major world religions there is a shared experience and shared morality. Certainly between Buddhism and Christianity and Hinduism and Judaism. I think with the Muslim faith too although don't really know enough about that religion to comment. A priest once told me that all religions are just different routes up the same mountain.

I'm not sure about Hinduism Pofaced. Islam has altruism as one of its Five Pillars but Hinduism seems to be more self-centred.

In Hinduism you have to be vegetarian though, you have to have compassion for all living things [karma] The caste system is often linked to Hinduism but I don't think it is more cultural and tribal.

'But I do think at the very core of the major world religions there is a shared experience and shared morality.'

pofaced, I couldn't agree more with this. Whilst I was working in India, I found that connection between people was amazing. The community I stayed with were of a mixture of faiths, so I was surprised to find that the whole village went to church on Christmas eve, including Hindu and Buddhist families. And Christian families would put up decorations for Diwali and would participate. I asked why and found that people did it because they wanted to celebrate with their neighbours, and that there was a genuine respect for others beliefs. There was also a confidence that their own beliefs were not so fragile that they would be led astray by participating.

How I wish the UK was like that.

I can only wonder what my friends there would think if I told them that someone was making a fuss about going to see a child's play.

OP - I'm skipping to the end, but all schools have to do a compulsory act of worship every day. No in reality most just get away with a little spiel in assembly. I am totally against all this and get very cross that my three year old is being taught prayers at a community school when we moved her away from a faith school feeding nursery to avoid this.

You have a choice though - you either withdraw them from all religious education and content (and yes you can, they have to sit outside during assemblies and they normally get shipped off to the library during religious studies lessons) or you can just tell them enough about religion for them to make their own minds up fairly early on.

Or you do what we are doing and pay massive amounts to send your kids to a quaker school where their 'observance' of the legal requirement to pray is met by sitting in quiet contemplation for 15 minutes a day.

whomoved, think back to listening to the little spiel in assembly when you were a kid - did it have a profound effect on your life? (Assuming you went to a standard UK state school??)

It didn't make you a evangelical Christian did it? Nor me, nor most of the other kids in my class.

Keeping your child away from religion is more likely to fuel their interest IMO, particularly when they get to the teenage stage. And I think some experience of what worship is like prepares them better for the big wide world.

I am arguing for a bit of perspective I suppose.

I'm a Christian and I have to say it wouldn't bother me at all if my dcs took part in a play about Rama and Shiva. Any more than the Diwali things they do at pre-school and Infants bother me.
As it so happens both my children are atheists. Their choice, not mine. I otoh became a Christian almost from the moment I first heard about Christianity (parents not believers). It's never been a problem with my parents either.

That's the way it should be IMO, cory. I don't see what the parent's beliefs have to do with the DCs-other that in the early years they will bring them up in a particular way.

flockwallpaper - well since I went to a predominantly muslim school most of our assemblies were not of a christian nature. I'm a secularist though, I believe everyone has the right to believe what they like but when they are (for example) three it's not them making a choice but having it foisted upon them.

A lot of children of three have things 'foisted upon them'. Children of three have few real choices. Was it your child's choice to be removed from the nursery and did they choose to attend a quaker school? You just have to do what you think is best for them, which it sounds as though you are doing.

I guess my point is that it may not have such a high impact as you think on your child's life, and you may not need to spend massive amounts to get an acceptable solution. The interpretation of the compulsory element is highly variable between schools though. At some schools, assemblies are never overtly bible based and they tend to cover behaviors that are considered part of christian living,but would also be appropriate to those of any faith or none, such as kindness to strangers.

Stuffitllllama, rather belated but I couldn't let this comment go unnoticed:

I must say I think I've been rather woolly, in the end. I wonder if all Christians have to resort to a certain level of woolliness just to get by.

I don't know about all christians but I never met a llama who wasn't pretty woolly

'But I do think at the very core of the major world religions there is a shared experience and shared morality.'

I think that among people there is a lot of shared experience and morality.

Not the false 'morality' imposed by some religions which leads to gay-bashing etc but true fundamental ethics.

This seems to be as an appropriate place as any to proudly announce that earlier tonight, I overheard my erstwhile very out-of-key daughter singing sweetly and almost perfectly in tune, "Once in Royal David's City".

The smile on her face when I told her how lovely it sounded was priceless. Do either of us believe a word of it? Nope. Does that matter? Nope. Its a pleasant traditional song and we both enjoyed it. Singing in the school choir - quite a lot of it hymns and carols - has helped her pitch enormously and she loves doing it.

I reckon that answers the OPs question pretty well.

Interesting thread.

My POV is the complete opposite of that of the OP.

I'm annoyed that my children are learning about Ramadan, Eid, Diwali alongside Christianity at school.

It is not so bad for mine, as we are Churchgoers and the children go to Sunday School. However, the majority of children do not have a church background, and often school is the main place where they will get an introduction to at least the basic Bible stories, and an idea of the existence of God. Instead they get the idea of religion as smorgasbord, where you can pick and choose your beliefs as you see fit.

England is still a Christian country, with a divinely ordained monarch. Other religions have no part in the culture of the English (or Welsh, Irish or Scots). Immigrant children will be aware of their cultural difference, so if not Christian would be fully aware that Christianity is a foreign creed to them. So ultimately its British kids who miss out, having their culture taken away from them, and missing out on hearing the word of God.

What a wonderfully appropriate nickname

'Divinely ordained monarch'... I thought that idea died when poor old Charles I lost his head.

yes, your pov is completely the opposite of mine.

That was divine right.

My parents were still in nappies when that big event happened in '53, but I think there was an Archbishop and a Church or something involved...

is that you nick?

Well you would think that if you believe that your faith is the one and only. But most people do have a bit of a smorgasborg approach even within organised religion (the range of belief within Christianity alone is incredibly broad). If you look at faith schools you will probably find that a large amount of the non-Christian kids are from other faiths, leaving community schools largely full of children whose parents are either actively agnostic/atheist or just aren't that interested. In either case the children have the whole of their lives to find a faith (or not). It's churches job to evangelise, not schools.

Christianity was an import originally, I don't think it is an intrinsic part of "British" culture.

Re the communality of belief within religions, it is generally held that the monotheistic faiths (Christianity, Islam and Judaism) have a lot in common, hardly surprising as they share the Old Testament, and the fundamental concept of a single God. The Eastern faiths are pantheistic and have very different ideas about such fundamentals as life after death - heaven vs reincarnation.

I'd hold that the basic morality they share is a human rather than a sacred value. Indeed it has been argued that holding these values/rules is evolutionary, as communities of people need a fairly consistent set of basic values in order to thrive.

I think you might be optimistic about shared values across religions or culture. With Pofaced's comment, I looked at Hinduism's relationship to caste, to see if I was mistaken. It is there, and certainly in south Asia it's an integral part of Hinduism as it's lived. It's very hard to separate religion and the caste culture in south Asia. Whether it is religious based, or culturally based, it is not a shared value.

oh and Grimma ha ha : mens woolly in corpore woolly

Actually I think you are very optimistic there.

GrumpyYoungFogey must indeed be young - truly perfect nickname!

Yes, I realised a moment after I'd posted and logged off that charlie lost his head over the divine right of kings. But I rather think that marked the point where Britons in general ceased to believe that the monarchy was anything other than a mere matter of inheritance rather than divine ordination.

Umm we are not a predominantly christian nation! Hasn't been for a while actually. If you read the census you'll see the number of practicing christians has plummeted.

And as for the 'divine head' thing - well actually we are headed by the government not the queen or the royal family. The latter has no real power these days as I'm sure you know.

And British kids are not necessarily christians either and to say that they are missing out is rather odd - surely by increasing the extent of their knowledge they are being exposed to lots of different ideas which help them make rational decisions.

I don't agree with religious education for the under sevens but I also don't agree with the idea that the reason for this is that we should all be adhering to some mythical 'mainstream christian' viewpoint which just is not representative these days.