Unconditionally parenting friend with terrifyingly behaved child - not sure how to deal with it. Longish

[AirPieandWindyPudding]

I have namechanged!

I have been spending time with this friend and her 5yo DS (and now baby DD) for a while and while I like them, the5yo can be very violent, as well as difficult in various other ways (eg screaming and kicking everything if he doesn't get his own way, being verbally extremely rude etc.) His mum has only ever responded by comforting him - I have never once heard her explain to him that any kind of behaviour is undesirable, let alone tell him not to. Often when he has behaved violently or nastily he is very upset and wants a lot of comfort and attention.

I do realise he may have SN (though nothing officially). In fact I am not sure whether the parenting has led to or encouraged his behaviour or is perhaps partly a result of it - ie he can't be controlled so she doesn't try.

However I'm finding it really difficult that both I and DS are the victims of his violence and nothing is done. She will say sorry to us but she won't tell him to say sorry or tell him it's wrong.

She hasn't said she is doing UP as such but she has talked about her parenting views conflicting with other people's and it is definitely a deliberate policy. I have been reading up on UP to try to understand it and while I agree with many of the basic tenets eg mutual respect and understanding, it does seem to me that it can be taken too far. What really upsets me is the message being sent to us, especially my DS - that it is OK for this boy to hit him, throw sand in his eyes etc. I have to reassure my DS that it is not, while avoiding openly criticising what's going on. It is also of course difficult that my DS gets very different responses from me as I am more of the "Oi! you do NOT hit, that hurt X, say sorry and if that happens again we will have to go home" school of parenting - not aggressive but a lot firmer and clearer. (BTW I am not saying I'm better than her. obviously I choose the kind of parenting I think is best but who knows what is best really - I'm not claiming to be an expert, i just want to be able to manage this)

I know that some other people have started avoiding them and she is becoming isolated, and exhausted with the baby as well, and I wonder if she is actually depressed (from other signs I have noticed).

I would love to hear your advice if you've been in a similar situation - should I ever say anything, to him or to her, and how? How would you deal with it when he's violent?

Rubbish. The child needs to be told "NO, you will hurt someone".

But to be honest, if they have got to that age without learning this, there's not a lot of hope for them. Until they go out into the big, bad world that is...

Horton thank you, that is a form of UP that makes more sense to me. I think perhaps some people take it further or misinterpret it? - and that might account for some of what I've read.

edam that is such a perceptive question - I'm convinced it's the latter. He gets upset immediately, and it's not to do with being found out - he does it openly in front of everyone including his mum. I think that's why it has often taken me by surprise.

Gosh, am feeling very sorry for the poor little sausage (although if it was my ds who had been battered, I'd find it harder to muster any sympathy, tbh). Sounds as if he is desperately trying to tell his mother he wants and needs boundaries. He knows what is happening is wrong, but clearly as a 5yo with an ineffectual mother, has no idea what to do about it.

I think I agree with you about that edam.

I am going to have to go to bed guys, thank you so much (I mean feel free to keep posting but I'll be off for the next day or so)

I didn't expect so many replies and it is really helping me to think this through which I should have done a lot sooner.

Glad to have helped a bit. One thought - maybe get hold of a few of the books that talk about this kind of parenting and offer to lend them to her? Read them yourself maybe and you could talk about what it all means. I know that's a big input of time for you but perhaps you could help her to see that the not saying no to children thing is actually supposed to be about not saying no when it doesn't matter rather than never saying no. For instance, I wouldn't say no to my daughter if she particularly wanted to wear a pair of pants on her head to go to the supermarket because she's only 2.9 and why not? It doesn't do anyone any harm. But I would say no and explain why if she wanted to take another child's toy or whatever because that action has consequences for her and for the other person.

Sorry that is a bit incoherent but I hope it makes sense.

I also know a little boy, starting school this year, who is aggressive towards my ds (who is a toddler), his toys and my house, and has also hit some teachers at his nursery. His mum, my friend, says that other people (me included) have too strict ideas about child behaviour. I think (though admittedly haven't really read up on, or asked her) that she practices UP, but because I have never seen her say anything to her ds at all about his behaviour - e.g. when he is pushing my ds or kicking lumps out of my ds toys - I am inclined to think she is a lazy parent. I end up saying to her ds "we don't kick toys / furniture / in my house or ds will think its ok to do so too" and feel v guilty for doing this, while his mum looks on. I feel so awkward about crossing the line in this way, but I really don't want ds to copy this behaviour or think its ok to hit / be hit.
I feel so sorry for her little boy as I know other people avoid them due to his behaviour, but I don't think it is his fault - he needs boundaries, and to know what these are.

I feel sorry for him too-his mother is failing him badly by letting him be the type of DC everyone avoids.
Everyone needs boundries. I was talking to an adult yesterday, she is a strict parent, and she was saying how difficult it was as a DC because her parents were too liberal and she was allowed to do anything-she found it really scary and is surprised that she is still alive to tell the tale because it got her into dangerous situations.
If you are a good friend you really need to broach the subject-it is fairer than just avoiding her. As your DC gets older you will find that he flatly refuses to have anything to do with this child.

I am not sure I see what this has got to do with unconditional parenting. Looks like your friend is not dealing with her 5 year-old which is not the same as UP.

I have a friend with a son like this. She is a lovely sweet gentle person. He on the other hand is really quite violent, unpredictable and unhappy and makes her life very difficult. He has complex mental health problems and is under the care now of a specialist mental health team. At school he is withdrawn and quiet btw - causes no problems, just worries. When he was younger we did used to wonder whether her gentle parenting style was part of the problem, but she has now also raised a lovely sweet gentle little girl (although she is quite good at defense, but then she has had to be).

It took many years of persistently attempting to get help before he had a diagnosis (he has a form of autism). So go gentle on her. There may be some reasons why she is parenting the way that she is and it might be more about being at the end of her tether than being useless.

May I just say too that being a "liberal" or UP -parent is not the same as "letting your child do anything" or not bringing your child up to know right from wrong. On the other hand, I think UP parenting requires a lot of work, patience and dedication and its not the same as some of you describe on this thread which sounds more like "lazy parenting".

I've got a ds with autism who's been aggressive on occasion. It's been a steep learning curve and at times a terrifying and very lonely journey.

We also broadly follow a UP style of parenting, but my ds isn't 'allowed' to hurt people, he's restrained, if need be, but normally I know him well enough to avoid/ head off difficult situations.

What your friend does doesn't sound like UP to me; I think I talk about and work with my dc's behaviour more than most people I know. In the case of ds2 I certainly do because I have to, in fact even though it's rare for him to hurt anybody now, talking with him and working out strategies still takes up a huge amount of my waking time.

I do know that the friends who've stuck with me over the years are people who I would now do absolutely anything for. We're a gentle bunch, and I NEVER expected to be dealing with ther problems that I've had to. I wouldn't expect anyone to do anything, but I truly love and respect the people who've were there while I was learning. I hope that now I'm able to be there for them when they need me.

It might not be the same situation with your friend, but if you feel able, there might be another path between judging her/ not seeing her and still keeping your son safe, which is of course the most important thing.

You sound thoughtful and kind, i hope it works out for you all.

She isn't UP-in fact she is giving it a bad name-it is actually hard work!

agree with others, doesn't sound like UP, but more like lazy parenting- or possibly exhausted parenting (could she be depressed or something?)

UP as I understand it is about working harder, being more on the ball

I agree with edam's posts.

This is really hard for you, I sympathise.

I think a lot of parents who themselves had very STRICT parenting want to try something quite 'opposite' but - in all honesty - I think that for some children, this is a disaster. Like edam suggests, some children seem to THRIVE with boundaries and want to have them imposed.

I would suggest trying to arrange a 'grown up' night out with her once every couple of months, so that you can still offer her personal friendship and support. But I suspect that over time, your children's friendship will become rather harder to maintain.

I agree with those who say you need to stand up for your child.
It is not fair on him to know this child comes round and is horrible, and always will be because he is never told to stop hitting. He must dread this boy turning up.

Although you may feel sorry for your friend, as a friend you need to talk to her about how her son is horrid to other children (and this won't make him friends or make his school life easy at all) and that you don't want to boy round as you also need to protect your DS from a badly behaved child.

If you are the last of a long line of people who says they don't want her son round she can either try to stop him being horrid or not deal with her son's behaviour and thus be lonely, this is her choice.

No matter how sorry you are for someone or how much you like them it is not fair to knowingly expose your child to harmful and upsetting situations.

DD had a "friend" like this, and though I like her mum, I had to stop the girl coming over as she was a real meanie to DD. I also did the "be nice to someone elses child" bit and did not say anything despite her repeated poor behaviour but one day she was so awful (to me)I exploded and said "pack it in or I take you home now". The look of shock on her face...they were 5 btw.

I would put your child first tbh, it must be upsetting for your ds to be the brunt of this childs behaviour and even more frustrating for you.

I have been in this situation with an ex friend of mine, she was much the same as your friend and her dd was awful to my dd, one time my ds then aged 5 rushed in screaming from the garden that my friends dd then aged 3 was sitting on my dd's, then aged 2, back, stuffing her face in the dirt and strangling her and she was a big tall girl for 3.

My dd had marks round her neck and ss were informed by the school because they thought I'D DONE IT!!

I couldn't bring myself (after throwing her and her dd out) to speak to her again, quite difficult as she ended up being in my dd nurery class and this girl bullied other children including my dd, She was eventually expelled at the age of 4 and had to go to a behavioural unit in another school.

But I found out that the whole family were awful to this little girl including her mum and the childs uncle and ss were working with them anyway.

I saw my ex friend on jeremy kyle a few months ago funnily enough..

Had similar situation with a friend and her ds. I told her I was not happy that her ds was getting away with hittijng my ds and being aggressive and unpleasant towards me, she looked absolutely appalled at the idea that her ds can be described as aggressive and is now not talking to me anymore. Tbh I agree withthe poster who says that people don't change. Other families are now avoiding this boy. It is sad, but have decided that from now on if parents don't step in when their kids misbehave, I will stop seeing them. And that poster who accuses the OP of being judgy. WTF? Of course you are going to judge a parent who allows her kid to be violent.

i just can't quite get my head around up. of course i love and respect dd but if she hit me i'd be cross whereas if she kissed me i'd be thrilled and kiss her back. cause and effect imo which is inevitably reward and punishment.
i think this woman is taking it too far and she'll learn the hard way when her ds has no mates. you don't have to hang out with them if it upsets you. mabe have a word and see if she'll compromise.

and also surely if somebody hits you, you get cross, so why pretend otherwise? don't get it at all...

i notice the up mob are not around..

McCloud, I think a couple of the UP mob have been around to explain that actually they do not allow their children to beat the shit out of others

this is not what UP is all about

I'm back, thanks for the new replies.

I think I should address the UP thing a bit... I did read some UP threads here and elsewhere and I saw some thing that I found worrying, eg someone saying their older child was hitting their baby repeatedly and they were trying to understand his motives and give him more love and attention in response but he didn't stop. Things like that upset because I'm left thinking "don't you care about how the baby must feel? - put a stop to it!" and also I feel it is wrong not to give a child the basic information about what is OK and not OK behaviour - it's failing to equip them for life and society and that seems cruel.

But, I do also understand that there is a more rational and coherent UP approach that is about unconditional love - and in fact I think (though I'm not a follower of any particular book or movement) that is pretty much my style too - no matter what a child does, how much they annoy you etc, you still love them and show them love and treat them with respect - however you can still say no, you can say this behaviour is not on, you can still have negative consequences and carry them out. Yes to positive feedback and praise as well, but you don't just put up with things like violence and wait for your child to see sense.

So, I apologise to any sensible (in my view obviously) UP-ers if I have tarred you and my friend with the same brush. The reason I used that phrase to describe her is that she definitely has a parenting policy, it is deliberate, she deliberately avoids being negative to him at all because she thinks it's bad for him - she is not just withdrawn and unbothered. She knows other people have a problem with it but she thinks she's in the right right and she just has to deal with their ignorance/put up with losing friends. I do think she may be depressed as well but I don't think it's a case of depressed, not coping and not bothering IYSWIM.

I think that there is probably some confusion over UP and related methods. The "unconditional" in UP is about love and respect - they are unconditional, your child doesn't lose them by behaving badly.

However I think some people think what it means is there are no conditions, there are no requirements, whatever a child wants and however they want to behave is somehow inherently valid and must be accepted and understood and tolerated and eventually they will turn out lovely. I think tbh my friend is still pursuing this and it's not working but she's hanging on in there.

However without having had a full and honest conversation with her about it I don't know for sure yet, but that is what I surmise from conversations we have had.

Unfortunately UP is one of those things that can be easily misinterpreted. When she finds she has a completely out of control teenager it will all be too late. School might help because they won't put up with his behaviour.