Unconditionally parenting friend with terrifyingly behaved child - not sure how to deal with it. Longish

[AirPieandWindyPudding]

I have namechanged!

I have been spending time with this friend and her 5yo DS (and now baby DD) for a while and while I like them, the5yo can be very violent, as well as difficult in various other ways (eg screaming and kicking everything if he doesn't get his own way, being verbally extremely rude etc.) His mum has only ever responded by comforting him - I have never once heard her explain to him that any kind of behaviour is undesirable, let alone tell him not to. Often when he has behaved violently or nastily he is very upset and wants a lot of comfort and attention.

I do realise he may have SN (though nothing officially). In fact I am not sure whether the parenting has led to or encouraged his behaviour or is perhaps partly a result of it - ie he can't be controlled so she doesn't try.

However I'm finding it really difficult that both I and DS are the victims of his violence and nothing is done. She will say sorry to us but she won't tell him to say sorry or tell him it's wrong.

She hasn't said she is doing UP as such but she has talked about her parenting views conflicting with other people's and it is definitely a deliberate policy. I have been reading up on UP to try to understand it and while I agree with many of the basic tenets eg mutual respect and understanding, it does seem to me that it can be taken too far. What really upsets me is the message being sent to us, especially my DS - that it is OK for this boy to hit him, throw sand in his eyes etc. I have to reassure my DS that it is not, while avoiding openly criticising what's going on. It is also of course difficult that my DS gets very different responses from me as I am more of the "Oi! you do NOT hit, that hurt X, say sorry and if that happens again we will have to go home" school of parenting - not aggressive but a lot firmer and clearer. (BTW I am not saying I'm better than her. obviously I choose the kind of parenting I think is best but who knows what is best really - I'm not claiming to be an expert, i just want to be able to manage this)

I know that some other people have started avoiding them and she is becoming isolated, and exhausted with the baby as well, and I wonder if she is actually depressed (from other signs I have noticed).

I would love to hear your advice if you've been in a similar situation - should I ever say anything, to him or to her, and how? How would you deal with it when he's violent?

In fact 100x you just told me that it would be "wrong" to impose my parenting ideas on her - fine. So why can't a 5yo be told "X is wrong"?

Please tell me she's homeschooling him, otherwise he's going to be traumatised when he hits mainstream.

Thanks pisces. Though I don't think you can ever stop a small boy behaving violently 100% - I mean they do occasionally get a bit aggressive even in the normal way of things and you step in. My DS is not a violent sort generally but I can't guarantee he'd never, ever throw a toy etc - it's just that if he does I step in immediately and make it clear it's not acceptable behaviour and it can't carry on. That's what she doesn't do.

So in a way if I talk to her I am imposing my parenting views because I'm telling her if she wants us to see her DS she will have to tackle his behaviour differently.

Ack! Just thinking aloud - but you ae all helping thanks.

Well I don't think you sound judgy at all and I admire your self-control. I don't think I would be able to stop myself from being very 'my gaff, my rules' about it - 'In this house we do not hit people.' (Not sure what I'd do in their house.)

To OP I used to be like you and not comment if other friends' children were misbehaving and hurting ds. I would, however, always tell ds off if he was even slightly less than perfectly behaved. That worked fine for a while and maintained friendships. Then ds got to an age (4) where he would comment on why was he being told off if he retaliated but not his friend's original bad behaviour.

I realised my first loyalty was to ds and protecting him from harm and as I am such a wuss I have ended up seeing less of friends whose parenting techniques are 'different'. Feel happier though and no longer end up feeling guilty.

do you mean empathy? Yes, I think empathy is important in society too. But I'm not sure why you feel the need to question her parenting so much? In fact, as she's never mentioned UP to you - why do you assume she is following UP?

Who knows if she's some UP advocate? Who knows whether she's just not very in control right now? Who knows whether she doesn't really know what to do with her ds and bursts into tears every time after you've walked out the door?

You don't know. There are ways to find out. But they come from a place which is about wanting to help your friend, not from a place with questions everything she does or doesn't do.

Honestly we stopped being friends with some people we really liked because of the behaviour of their three children- well the two boys mostly. It wasn't even the time the older boy's violence had my son in hospital having 6 stitches in his head that led us to stop being friends with them. It was the older boy tying our son to his bed and forcibly smearing him with makeup that really did it for us.

Can't advise beyond that though, sorry. I actually believe that parents should monitor and channel their children's behaviour and I think that unconditional parenting is just another name for laziness and refusal to take responsibility for them.

Well, one way or another both your friend and her ds are going to find out that physical violence will have unpleasant consequences. Sooner or later her son will attack the wrong child and end up being thumped. Perhaps if you put it that way, she might be more receptive. In any case, no matter how sorry you feel for this woman, it's grossly unfair for your ds to see another child getting away with behaviour that he would be reprimanded for.
Unfortunately, in my experience, no mother reacts well to being told that her child is behaving badly, even if it's true. You sound like you're looking for a non-confrontational way to fix this situation. There probably isn't one. I had a similar issue which we could only manage by limiting contact with the other family.

I had a friend like this ...once....she took the hump with me when I told her 5 year old dd to not stand on top of my glass dining table .

Is this child at school? How are they dealing with his behaviour?

AirPie I feel your pain. I am in a very similar situation. I had to stop seeing a friend for a while. Now luckily the child in question is not often present when we meet.
As I value the friendship I have decided that I will tell him off myself when/if he misbeheave in my house or against my DDs. Everything else I'll leave it to his parents. But as I have been silent before for respect to my friend I think for respect to my daughters I should speak up. What would I indirectly teach them otherwise?!

I have encountered quite a few with this light approach and IMHO make life so unpleasant for all around their children and make them so unwelcomed.

This is not an attack on UP by the way as I have no idea the parents in questions have embraced UP but just on those that do not teach their children basic manners in whichever way.

He is not at school yet - will be starting this year.

'So in a way if I talk to her I am imposing my parenting views because I'm telling her if she wants us to see her DS she will have to tackle his behaviour differently.'

I don't think you are. She can parent however she likes, but her DC isn't entitled to bully your DC. His behaviour is unacceptable and he will become isolated if it continues-other DCs will avoid him.
I would be tempted to have him round on a playdate, without his mother and tell him plainly -'my house-my rules'.He would probably be a different DC! It would also give her a break-she must be in need of one!

He's going to get a shock then. No way will school put up with this behaviour.

Unbelievable!

If you have been attacked by a spoilt brat and your ds has and you've been too stunned to say or do anything while the mum comforts her spoilt brat, what message are you giving?

You are condoning his behaviour that's what!

Special needs are being CREATED if a child is not learning firmly that hitting and being violent are wrong behavioural choices.

This namby pamby wishy washy rubbish is damaging the child immeasurably and sending out the wrong signals to other dc.

He is not learning it's wrong so the older he gets he'll be be stronger and liable to do some real damage. What then?
"whoops! you've just headbutted me and thrown sand in my face, poor diddums, you need a big cuddle"?

Honestly it is laughable. What friend are you exactly? I would have no hesitation whatsoever in firmly telling that boy off and telling his mother she is creating an absolute monster by parenting in that way.

You have to be honest to help her. Don't walk away unless you've thrust a positive parenting guide in her hands and tell her how you think he should be dealt with. In other words, be practical, positive and helpful not just critical and judgemental. Only walk away if she doesn't think there is a problem, but for goodness sake let her know exactly how you feel. Otherwise how can she help him or herself?

100x you are right it has not been named as such, but beliefs and strategies that she has mentioned, and the fact that she says she has a parenting method that some other people don't agree with, tells me it's a system, and what I have read on UP threads matches very closely with what I see. I have been using UP as a kind of shorthand because it basically sums up her approach.

agree with SaintMaybe and Heated - as first step, try and talk openly about these incidents, and suggest that the boys need a careful eye on them while playing to try and prevent incidents happening where her DS beats up yours. Unless she is as insensitive as a brick, she surely must realise she is struggling with her DS's behaviour and may welcome a chance to speak to someone calm and non-judgmental.

Gertie yes I deserved that. I am feeling extremely bad about my DS and the message I have been sending him.

(I think she thinks this is positive parenting - she is only ever positive towards him whatever he does.)

out of interest - does this boy have language or other social skills problems?

You aren't imposing your views - she's free to choose how she raises her ds but has to accept the natural consequences of failing to stop him hurting other people are that they will have a rapidly diminishing circle of friends, adult and child.

I'd tell her, as politely and tactfully as I could, that you can't allow your ds to be hit and hurt again and again without intervention. Try to talk to her about coming up with something that she can live with - you telling her ds 'STOP' and if he continues, they leave. Or whatever.

I really do think children need to learn boundaries from their parents.
Obviously they need lots of love and cuddles too (my boys get more than their fair share of these ) but if their parents don't teach them right and wrong, who will?

(Feel bloody sorry for the other kids in his class, btw.)

He is bright and no language problems but he's quite anti-social. However he can chat, interact and play with other children - he often chooses not to but he's not unable to IYSWIM.

Actually, does this kid wail and demand comfort from his mother because he's been found out, or because he's actually uncomfortable with his own behaviour and doesn't know how to cope with other children?

Sounds as if his mother is failing him very badly, tbh.

(Not that any of that is your problem and certainly not your ds's. But the child is or is going to be a very unhappy little boy if his mother doesn't pull her head out of her behind.)

I don't think this is unconditional parenting, or indeed any kind of parenting. I try to follow the basic idea of UP in terms of respect and actions having natural consequences etc but I wouldn't scruple to point out to my daughter that the natural consequence of being mean to somebody is that you have to be removed from the situation and go and be bored in another room or whatever until you feel like being a bit pleasanter (and hopefully apologising) because nobody wants to be around people who hit other people or shout at other people or are rude.

I've also encountered friends who seem to have a loose grasp on what's acceptable with regards to their children and it is very hard.

Couldn't you talk to her a bit? Could you say 'I would hate to lose your friendship but this is really difficult because your child is upsetting mine'?