Where does my brother stand WRT custody of his unborn child?

[OneForMyBaby]

My brother, who lives in Australia and is married to an Australian, has been having marriage difficulties for about 18 months now. His wife had an affair throughout last year, and he did all he could to put right his contribution to the strain their relationship had been under, and to repair the marriage. From the beginning of this year, reconciliation looked likely.

However, on Friday, she took off unexpectedly on a plane to visit the man she was having an affair with. She said she'd be back Sunday, then Thursday this week, and now it's Saturday. My brother doesn't trust her, and obviously any progress with repairing their marriage has come undone.

My brother wants a divorce. Bittersweet news is that his wife is three months pregnant (with his child). They had fertility treatment, which was unsuccessful, before her affair, so didn't think they could have a child without intervention. They have now conceived naturally.

My brother has some reservations about his wife's mental health, because of the way she has behaved towards him over the past 18 months and some of the things she has written/said to both him and her lover. She seems very unstable. She told him as she left on Friday that if he considered leaving while she was away, that this would be extremely selfish of him considering he is due to be a father - in spite of them both knowing where she was going. This is at the same time as emailing her lover praising his willingness to raise another man's child - and another email (to the lover) saying she will have a termination. He (the other man) has said he wants nothing to do with her and didn't want to see her (he forwarded all her communication to my brother).

My biggest concern in this soap opera, and I think my brother's too, is that his wife will very likely be raising his child as a lone parent with mental stability issues. (Her mother experienced mental health problems during her childhood, and she and her sisters lived with their father when he and their mother separated.)

He knows, from her behaviour over the past few years, that she will likely use the baby as a bargaining tool and leverage against him. He isn't certain what he will do yet, but wonders under what circumstances he might be able to gain custody (or at least primary carer status) of their child. Anyone know anything about this, particularly in an Australian context? Thank you.

You can't equate this with the case of a pregnant woman whose husband has gone off to have an affair.

The woman is pregnant and she is the vulnerable one here, no matter what her behaviour.

You say she will block access, but you do not know that for sure as the baby isn't even born yet. If she does, then that is the time to start worrying about access.

The assertion she is mentally unstable comes from her husband who is clearly very angry and trying to mount a case against her to gain custody of an unborn baby.

He should be supporting her in order to support his baby. You can't remove a new-born child from its mother without consequences.

Completely agree with Hobbgoblin and Dittany.

she wasn't pregnant when she began the affair- she sounds controlling and more than a little bit fucked up. If this guy doesn't want her (the affair) and she's volunteering to ditch kid/husband to suit her she sounds utterly unstable-I can't believe that there's such a groundswell of support for her merely because she's pregnant.
The facts are as follows-she's is using baby as a weapon to blackmail husband into not leaving her whilst hedging her bets with the guy she's shagging and saying 'if you want me then i'll terminate it'
i think that breastfeeding is important-but if she's as batshit and unhinged as she seems (launching herself at someone who doesn't seem to give a fuck about her while pregnant with another mans child' I'd be worried.
If this was one of my mates i'd be having strong words with them about the wisdom of my actions and saying 'she's pregnant and therefore above question in her motives and actions' is frankly bollocks.
The brother could just be a mr nice guy who is watching his unborn kid being used as leverage in 2 negotiations by an unhinged ex wife...we don't know,i don't think it's unreasonable for the OP to be upset/interested/intervening.
and saying that the kid needs to be breastfed for at least the first year so therefore should always be with the mother is sending shudders down me...if she's as flighty and inconsiderate now then what the fuck is she going to be like when she gets her man and is playing loves young dream with her lover?????? obviously,provided she doesn't terminate baby in case it fucks her plans up.
She seems to be wanting to have her macaroons,eat them and then scoff them down too...

I think you need to be aware that you're hearing his version of events. Perhaps it is close to the truth. Perhaps it's not, but either way, it's HIS interpretation of events.

My x truly believes I am mad. He would tell anybody who would listen that I am insane, and he tried to use it against me that my father had briefly been in a psychiatric hospital. (AFter he was made redundant in his 40s). I had been on anti-depressants supposedly because of post-natal depression but actually because the relationship was making me miserable (all fault aside).

I think Dittany is absolutely right. The only thing to do is to support her as a parent. Don't try and go to war with her, and especially don't try to demonise her to increase your chances of winning the 'war'.

Sleepless, did the empathy gene bypass you at conception?

It doesn't how many derogatory terms you choose to attach to this woman's behaviour (batshit?), the fact is it will do the child no good to see its mother written off as a nutter.

Anybody who behaves bizarrely whether that be because of personality disorder or some other mental condition of ill health, requires assistance not labelling and dismissal as a worthy human being.

Put yourself in the shoes of a child with a mother who acts in difficult to understand ways...not only do they have to deal with the behaviour of that parent, but also, whilst people in general choose to sneer and dismiss rather than support they also have to deal with the shame and sadness of having a parent that others label as unhinged, and undeserved of sympathy or compassion.

The love between parent and child is unconditional and this has to be recognised whilst welfare decisions are made. Mutually supportive parenting would be best for this child whether the main residence is with father or mother. I find it hard to imagine that a battle for residency and general slagging off of the mother will achieve this.

Im shocked at the flaming your getting OP. Reading your posts about how your SIL is behaving, you have a right to be concerned. A baby needs to be with a parent who can provide it with the best care, and meet all its needs, whether it be the mother or father. Of course a mother is the ideal primary caregiver because of the special bond we have with our babies, but we should recognise the importance of the father too, it is just as much his child as the mothers. And the OP's brother is showing a lot more concern about the future and happiness of this baby than his wife at the moment isnt he?? did any of the negative posters actually read that this woman was offering up termination as a means to get back with the other man, from their posts, it doesnt seem like.
I think your brother should try and work with her at the moment as that seems all he can do. But he could see a specialist solicitor to see where he stands just incase it goes tits up. Best of luck to you and your brother. X

Hobgoblin, how do you deal with your x-in laws now?

My x and his mum tried to go down the path of saying I was mad (because I left him, therefore, um, totally mad ) My relationshp with my x's mum is just non-existant. I think she knows she went too far,and I can't believe how low an opinion she had of me, and how vile and heartless she was to me. No, not exactly, I was just nothing more than 'collateral' to her getting what she wanted.

One of the things that rather concerns me is that the brother is in email contact with the wife's lover and they are both slagging the poor woman off. No wonder she's not feeling very stable. OP have you any evidence that the lover actually exists?

Yes that does sound HIGHLY unlikely, her new boyfriend and her husband emailing eachother.

For Godness Sake whats wrong with some of you!

The OP came on here for advice, help and all she's had is a barrage of abuse.

can you imagine what the mother might post?

I left my husband because we weren't right together. AFter years of fertility treatment I discover I'm actually pregnant. I can't live with my husband anymore. I thought I might have found happiness with somebody else, we might have a future, EVEN though I'm pregnant with another man's child. I'm not planning to cut out the Dad but I do want residency. The thing is, my x is dredging up my behaviour and putting his own spin on it to look like I'm mentally ill. I was very unhappy with him, but never mentally ill. His own behaviour wasn't exemplary I can tell you. He is telling his family I'm mad,and they plan to support him in his misguided plan to fight me for residency.

I bet that's what she would say!!

CAN YOU SEE THAT KIND OF POST ON MN???? i CAN.

hobgoblin,i am fully aware of parental support and currently volunteer doing just that-supporting parents of able to make comment-having seen at first hand,lots of very very selfish women using children to 'get at' people and have witnessed,first hand,that some people,regardless of the support they get from various friends,families,external agencies don't have it in their nature to put the needs of the child first-which is rather important to good parenting don't you think?
This poor baby comes a poor third after the mother and the lover although is disposable (unless the lover leaves in which case she still needs it to blackmail the husband into not leaving)
As I keep saying, we don't know the full story-or what's happened on his side/why the 'lover' is forwarding emails to the husband (that all sounds a bit 'shady' unless of course the lover is also worried for her mental health and is discussing his fears with the husband?) she sounds an absolute cracker though and no mistake...

"an absolute cracker" ???

Yes, Sleepless, we do only have the OP's version to go on.

And her OP is filled with concern about her brother's rights. None about what is best for the baby.

She also states that her main concern is that the mother MIGHT have mental health issues.

The woman hasn't even had the baby yet, so there is no proof that she will block contact with the father.

She has no history of mental health problems, and even if she did that is no reason to condemn her mothering skills.

The brother doesn't even know where she is right now - he assumes she is with the boyfriend, but there is no proof of that.

He is busy forwarding emails painting his wife in a nasty light to his family.

He doesn't sound like he has the baby's best interests at heart at all - only about whether he "wins" or not.

As for her, who can say? We haven't heard from her, have we?

Wow. More posts. Thanks.

The lover apparently has concerns about my SIL's mental health too, and does/did not want to see her. He contacted my brother recently and forwarded several emails to him, sent by SIL, in the spirit of "you may want to read these and know that she is still contacting me" (not decent behaviour, granted, when perhaps he could have just said, "She's still in touch with me."). I don't know how they (the other man and my brother) initially got in touch, but they were in contact - civilly - at the supposed end of the affair late last year, both concerned about SIL's behaviour and how she had been behaving.

SIL is definitely pregnant. My brother has been to a scan with her. Paternity is a valid question mark though. I don't know that I could suggest this to my brother at the moment, but I will keep it in mind.

Our concerns about SIL are not founded solely on the events of the last 18 months. We have known her for nearly nine years, and during that time, she has lived with my family, and been verbally abusive to both me and my dad. We have always been polite to her, keeping our reservations to ourselves.

Preceding SIL's affair, she and my brother were spending some time living in a foreign country where she didn't speak the language, both were feeling isolated, they had money difficulties, and fertility treatment had failed. They were both under strain. I don't know how she responded to that stress. The tension on my brother's part peaked when, as well as being moody and short-tempered, he pulled (not dragged) his wife out of a shop by her coat. Highly disrespectful. I know that. He knows that. She knows that. He has apologised repeatedly, has had some counselling, and hasn't behaved similarly since (this was in 2007). He has wanted the relationship to work, and to my knowledge, has been doing whatever he can to repair it. I do believe his wife punishing him emotionally for months and months afterwards is IMO cruel. Of course, my brother could (should) have quit trying to reconcile much earlier on and retained some self-respect. And yes, despite the small odds of conceiving, could (should) have used contraception while the relationship continued to be unstable.

My brother has Australian citizenship and has found a new job since his redundancy. He is not generally a bum, as one poster implied. He works in a well-paid industry which has suffered in the recession, and lost his job of five years earlier this year. As I said, he has now found another position.

Thank you all for your perspectives on this. Reading them, collectively, has been helpful. I'm encouraging my brother to be as calm and respectful as he can in ending the marriage and handling financial and parenting matters; of course you're right that keeping things amicable will pay dividends for all, especially the baby. I have talked to him a bit about friendly co-parenting, emphasising that it's worth striving for. My brother, my family and SIL's family remain concerned about her health, and I suppose will simply keep an eye on it - and in the meantime, if my brother wants to, he can learn about primary carer status/parental responsiblity/custody as they stand in Australia, with our support, in case this information should be needed later on. And I will contact SIL later today and offer my support. Thanks.

I think you are taking the right approach here.

Mental illness is not a barrier to being a good mother - just look at the numbers of women on the mental health board here.

I would really urge your brother not to go down the seeking custody route, though. It will be damaging for everyone. This is not 12-year-old child we're talking about here, it is a new-born baby, and things are so different when children are very young.

And MaggieBee, here's my revision of your imaginary post of SIL - there were some significant omissions:

"I left my husband after we'd both been through a particularly stressful time, which peaked with him treating me disrespectfully. I couldn't get past it, so began an affair. However, I still loved my husband and didn't want to leave him, but wanted the other man too, and felt that an extended affair might punish my husband sufficiently for his behaviour. He deserved the hurt [she has written this]. I took my wedding ring off for a year and could not tell him I loved him, but still expected him to treat me like a princess and shower me with gifts and treats as a good husband should, to earn my love again [she has written this, too]. After a year, I promised to end contact with my lover, but couldn't, so continued it in secret. Meanwhile, I fell pregnant naturally by my husband, despite unsuccessful IVF. My husband has found out I am still in contact with my lover. Since it's in the open, and I miss my lover and need to know where I stand with him, I have decided to pay him a visit, although he has said he doesn't want to see me. If he will consider taking me back, I may consider a termination, although he may be a sweet enough man to raise my husband's child. However, I have warned my husband that it would be highly selfish of him to consider leaving while I'm away, as an expectant father - and even after 18 months, I still want to keep both men as options, just in case. But I don't want to have counselling, individually or as a couple. What should I do?"

Hmm. I wonder how Mumsnet would respond to that?

And yes, it does make my brother look a fool for hanging around as long as he has. We hoped he'd get out a year ago. I think it's half stupidity on his part, and half weakening under repeated emotional abuse, and ending up believing this is what he deserves and he'd be lucky if he could keep her.

Those aren't facts, though, are they?
You don't KNOW she's gone to see the boyfriend. You don't KNOW she wants to keep both men stringing along.

Try to remember that although you are closely connected here, no-one can ever really know what goes on between two people.

I really believe that. It is unlikely that your SIL is as awful as your brother has painted her here. He is angry, you are angry for him, you don't get on with her.

Try to step back a bit, or you won't be able to help him.

She must have some redeeming features?? Otherwise, why did he marry her?

dollius, I hear that. I genuinely do not believe that mental illness is a blanket barrier to good parenting. But some mental illnesses, some of the time, can be. I think that's indisputable. I don't know what diffiulties SIL may be experiencing, if any, but if she were to treat her child as she has treated my brother and us over the years, I'd be concerned.

But I am sold that, certainly for now and while the baby is small, and for as long as SIL seems to be taking good care of the baby (assuming she does), we need to bite our tongues and support her and my brother in friendly co-parenting as much as possible.

I read your post and I can see it from your persepctive honestly. I feel very upset if my brother was going to have a child and we had no idea how involved if at all we would be in the child's life.

But I have to urge you to slow down in your belief that she has mental health issues.

My x's family truly believe that I am mentally ill. I am totally and utterly sane. I reacted badly a few times out of sheer frustration at not being listened to, not being considered, my wishes being overruled, being mocked, being sidelined...... so, as a result of what felt like torture and misery, I had a few meltdowns in their presence, and as a result of that, they honestly believe that I am mad. Now that I am away from their son, I am 100% fine.

But they haven't turned the spotlight back on themselves at any point. I at least have done a bit of navel-gazing. I'm not blaming YOU, but you have got to try and understand that showing emotion doesn't equate madness, And even though it's not great, being RUDE to your IN LAWS isn't mad either. Living with in laws even temporarily could make anybody feel tempted to behave badly. Especially if there was a backlog of frustrations you knew nothing about building up.

If I were you I'd just change your 'tack' (sp?) altogether.

Instead of coming over judge and jury, and looking very hard for this girl's supposed faults, send her an email! congratulate her on her pregnancy. Tell her that as a mother yourself you're delighted for her, and that even if the circumstances arent' ideal, things will work out they usually do.

I really think that would be a good 'tone'.

Let me tell you, my in laws don't see my children at all now (although their father does). They spent far too long demonising me and sticking their heads in the sand over their son's treatment of me.. I am not an unreasonable person or a nasty person. When I left my x, I sent his mother a very nice letter telling her she would always be their grandmother and she could visit etc etc. She through it all back in my face with nasty phonecalls accusing me of many vile things (madness being one of them).

Listen to MaggieBee, she is talking a great deal of sense.

It is the only way to ensure the best chance of your family retaining ties with that baby.

may I suggest that the couple go to couples counselling (there is no Relate in Aus but there are couples counsellors). People assume its about staying together but it can also be about amicable endings- for this rather sticky situation I would suggest going private and getting a suitably qualified and experienced therapist.
As for all the other guff on this thread well..... all I'm saying is that in 40 odd years of developemtnal psychology/attachment research no one has been able to come out and say well a baby MUST be with mum or else. Babies need secure atachement figure/s (man or woman doesn't matter it's all about responding attetivly to babies needs), in the op's case I sincerely hope both parents are able to do this