Four year old boys are reeeeeeeeeeeeeelly exasperating

[WinkyWinkola]

After a day of his wilful destruction, rages, ignoring my requests to stop misbehaving, breaking toys at his friend's house and shouting of, "KILL, KILL, KILL!" at me whenever I admonish him, I simply do not want the child anywhere near me for hours, if not days. I don't want to hug him or anything.

He's currently in his bed howling because he only got two bedtimes stories instead of his usual four.

I'm not the only one, am I? Some days are so shit.

Have absolutely no advice to add except it is nice to know DS is not the only one obsessed with large sticks (we have a big pile by the garden door of sticks he has 'collected' walking home from nursery) lots of irritating shouting whining tears and tantrums lots of macho posturing (anything that can be turned into a weapon will be) and much employment of the words stinky poo bum and willy. Putting him in nursery til 3 3 days a week has saved my sanity-he is an angel there apparently...
Some of it is definitely related to tiredness/hunger, some to jealousy of his baby sister (who is at a particularly cute stage). Sometimes he can be totally gorgeous-very funny and curious about the world and he is usually very good to his baby sister-presumably that is why he takes it out on us?

Ds1 fell asleep last night at about 6 and slept through till nealry 7 am. Has been in a good mood all morining -- perhpas he has been needing more sleep?

For better or for worse I adopted a zero tolerance policy to 'killing' games when DS was 4. I know he still played them at school, but I chose not to know, and he did at least come to understand that it was unacceptable at home.

DS was in an almost-all boys class at school which exasperated the situation and the school was a bit too inclined (IMHO) to take a 'boys will be boys' attitude but eventually cracked down on it when the fighting got out of hand and a couple of teeth got broken - they have been better since then.

It does improve - if only because, as others have said, they learn to suppress rage enough to stomp off to their rooms (and therefore hopefully out of earshot).

Stealth -- what did you do if/when he started it up at home in order to stop the behaviour?

Peanutbutter - your ds has been sharing tips with mine!

DS1 is just 4 the top of the most annoying things he does chart is:

• copying parrot style everything everyone says. If I tell him to stop he just copies me. I'm sure there must be a clever way of making him stop other than streaming at him to go away.

• telling him off for doing something and then him hanging off me saying he needs a cuddle (I understand why he's doing this but it's so irritating)

• If he doesn't get what he wants (yesterday it was an apple, didn't have any in) - he just screams/sobs/lies on the floor until I can think of something to bribe him out of it. He is so loud I can't ignore it, he's to heavy and strong to move out of the way.

I have no guilt at all about wanting September here now!

We also have a pile of sticks by the front door, next to the pile of manky feathers and red elastic bands dropped by the postman!

@ the pile of sticks - same here! There must some very frustrated dogs about whose sticks have all be taken by 4yr old boys !

It's so nice to know I'm not the only one with a big pile of sticks outside the front door!

what an absolutely reassuring thread. I can see DS (only 3.2, but hey, maybe he's just doing this early) soooo clearly in so many of the posts.

He is managing to combine being terribly over-sensitive with being destructive, wilfully disobedient and violent.

We're doing time out for serious infringments (throwing DH's hot cup of tea, most recently), and more yelling than I like to think about.

I will keep reassuring DH (who was a very quiet little boy by all accounts) that this is NORMAL and JUST A PHASE, not a sign of a life of juvenile delinquency and crime...

Oregonian - I had typed a coherent answer to your question but then my stupid network crashed

Basically I am fierce parent - I confiscated any toys being used as improvised guns, hauled him in from the garden if he couldn't play without "killing", pounced on finger-pointing with "bang" and was generally mean . What I did not attempt to do was to explain or rationalise - I really wasn't going to have a debate about the aims, morals and limits of pacifism with a 4yo.

Stealth -- you make me smile.

CaptainK - my boy is 3.2 as well so I don't feel too bad crashing onto a 4 year olds thread. He's lovely in so many ways, but there is A LOT OF SHOUTING for no reason, telling me off in the voice I use to tell him off - again often for no reason, biting, flying off the handle suddenly.. He's not such a physical little boy as some here seem to be, so maybe I have things a bit easier, but sometimes I miss my sweet little angel fella! Good to know that he may resurface in a couple of years.
In the meantime I've got a cute little girl to remind me of the good bits of parenting . Hopefully we've timed it so that DS is nice again when she hits the screaming/tantrumy phase...

5 year old girls have their moments too!

Up until our DD was 18m I thought that 'I'll scream and scream and scream until I am sick' was fiction. Believe me it is not. Having thought she was through this, my DD of 4.6 has started the trick all over again. Reading this thread I can assure you that it is not only DSs that do this. My DD could teach them a trick or two! What I do not understand is why something as simple as getting a piece of toilet paper for her starts major tantrum that can last a couple of hours!!! Hitting, kicking, shouting, throwing, saying 'I am not your friend', etc are all tools she uses to try and rile me with.

DH making comments like 'you need to stop letting her get to you' does not help and in fact makes me feel even worse! It would be good if he waded in occassionally and backed me up but he never wants to upset the kids and leaves it to me. Seeing as he leaves the house at 6:30am and gets back at 8pm he isn't much use through the week anyway. If I hear one more time that commuting to work is hard I will scream! Admitedly I don't have a commute but I still have to work a full day and deal with grumpy children at either end of that day. I would love for him to change places with me for a month to see how hard it can be to 'stop letting her get to me'! I would relish the chance to sit on a train for a couple of hours and read a book without DC or DH demanding something from me. Coffee in hand ...............

DS is now 2.9 and starting to have more tantrums of his own so things will get worse in our house before they get better. This morning his trick was to clamp his mouth shut so that I couldn't clean his teeth. He hates it at the best of times but was not budging this morning.

This week's trick is to let the children shower in the mornings with me, rather than have a bath. DD sees this as a very grown-up thing to do and it means that bedtime is not so fraught. It hasn't stopped them sleeping either which is a good thing. Next week, no doubt, I will have to think of something different!

I can't wait for school to start as DD is bored at nursery and I think that could be some of the problem.

That was certainly a cathartic to spend 10 minutes of my lunchbreak. Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I finally feel that I am not alone in this behavioural wilderness.

Vicky I am glad that my DD is not the only one who really can scream and scream until she is sick - but to hear that it might recur even after she has grown out of it (which she hasn't, yet, at 2.5).

Hey, how are y'all doin this week? My ds has surprised me by being generally more pleasant -- he must thave realised I was starting to get serious about the threats to sell him on ebay/ phone the circus/ tell Father Xmas (OK, OK, it was a moment of deperation) if he didn't settle down.

This week's trick from Oregon: get some glitter. at bedtime, sprinkle it on pillow, uttering 'magic' words to help ds/dd 'grow' into mature boy/girl who does not hit/hurt/spit/shout/demand and is patient/kind/gentle/well-mannered. Much eye-rolling and talking in tongues needed for full effect, but he has asked for it every night since last week, and if I so much as mutter, 'hmm, no magic tonight' he stops quick sharp.

Why the hell this works and nothing else does I have no idea.

oh thank god I found this htread!
DS (4.1) drives me bloody insane at times.
He can be gorgeous, adult, funny, cute, adorable, etc etc
However that can all dissapear in a trice and I am left with Mr Whine, a whingy, demanding, violent, ants in the pants horror.

The whine really gets me, this morning I was woken up at 5.45am by a whiney voice saying "mummy, milk, want JUICE, mummy, mummy, want juice"

The thing that beats the whine hands down however in our house is the negative reaction to ANYTHING and EVERYTHING.

I don't expect miracles and I don't really expect gratitude from a 4 yr old. But as today comprised of a pet show, facepaitning, bouncy castle, icecream, lie on the river bank, burger, go fishing, bouncy castle, swingboat ride, music to dance to, paddling in river, all in beautiful sunshine it would have been nice if just ONCE I could have got DS to put shoes on ready to go out without a huge screaming fit.

"DH making comments like 'you need to stop letting her get to you' does not help and in fact makes me feel even worse! It would be good if he waded in occassionally and backed me up but he never wants to upset the kids and leaves it to me. Seeing as he leaves the house at 6:30am and gets back at 8pm he isn't much use through the week anyway. If I hear one more time that commuting to work is hard I will scream! "
vickypon I feel your pain! why is it that our DPs think that coming in and saying "don't let it upset you" is in ANYWAY helpful?
I also have a DH who works very long hours, he is actually away Monday-thursday every week and STILL tells me I let DS get to me too much. (um yes that would be because I have to put UP WITH HIM!)

oh I have just read this thread and the relief I feel is incredilbe..

Its not my terrible parenting that has turned my ds into a horrible little boy

I notice the lack of answers on here..which I guess means we just have to struggle through this phase

I am loving this thread too. I have ds1 who is almost 8 and was never like this at all. I have ds2 who is 4 (now almost 5) and has been driving me steadily insane for the last few months. Many of the things are the same as what others have said. But the thing that springs to mind most is impulse control - or should that be lack of impulse control! He just can't control urges to do things even if he knows she shouldn't. The constant wee/poo obsession is fun too . He is soooooo physical and this gets him into problems with his older brother all the time. He pokes him, hits him in play, etc. He also has to have whatever it is he wants NOW!

And I have this all to do again as ds3 is only 10 months!

DD will be 5 in a few weeks - she has been reeeeeeeeeealy exasperating for several months now

It isnt gender specific, or even age specific- Im hazarding a guess that turning 5 will make little difference to dd and her tantrums

Love this thread so much. I thought I was the only one with a horrible 4 year old! Some of the behaviour described on here and in particular the collecting of sticks, elastic bands and feathers has had me laughing out loud (am at work so not good, really).

DS1's behaviour was grinding me down so much that I have enrolled on a parenting course - begins next week so hopefully that will give me some tips to cope with the tantrums etc.

oh yes everything has to be NOW!
its 6.45 and I'm fairly tired after a VERY long bank holiday weekend and being woken up at 5.45.
DS is showered and dressed and sitting on the sofa with a drink of juice while I make toast and tea and juice;
"donkeys head broken" (uttered in a shriek)
"hang on a second pet, mummy will fix it when she's made the toast" (knowing that he has his sticker book and therefore must have pulled off the horses head for some unfathomable 4 yr old reason
"donkeys head broken, donkeys head broken, DONKEYS HEAD BROKEN, donkeys head broken, DONKEYS HEAD BROKEN, donkeys head broken, DONKEYS HEAD BROKEN, donkeys head broken, DONKEYS HEAD BROKEN"

2 minutes later I get into the living room, lean over, take the horses head from his sticky hand and stick it down.

"toast, toast toast toast chocolate toast mummy, chocolate toast mummy"
"we've run out of chocolate spread SJ - mummy will get more when we go to the shops"
"chocolate toast mummy, chocolate toast, chocolate toast, chocolate toast"
"you can have a chocolate button after your toast, if you ask nicely and eat up your toast without shouting"
toast thrown on floor...
"NOOOOOOOOOOO chocolate toast"
"oh dear now you've thrown your toast on the floor- what a shame, no chocolate button for SJ"
"Nooooo aaaaaaaaaaaargh hate you"
mummy picks up her cup of tea (now with large slug of whisky) and goes to sit on the stairs

My ds is just over 5 and has these mega meltdowns sreaming shouting. 'I don't like you' 'go away' 'I want a new mummy' 'You are always mean to me' etc etc. He also wants to kill everything and now my nearly 3 yr old ds say it too, charming

Selective hearing. yesterday I called and called him when we were at the play ground but he completely ignored me and then had a tantrum when I took his arm to lake him home "screaming ow ow ow mummy its hurting"
Oh the joys.

I may join you for the whiskey Halia

This thread is so reassuring! My DS is nearly 4 too and it is such a relief to know it is not only him! The whining and general refusal to do even the simplest tasks make for an exhausting day...roll on September when he starts school!

At the risk of sounding repetitive, THANK GOD I FOUND THIS THREAD! Have just joined Mumsnet after upsetting conversation with my Ds,s nursery carer today. He is being put on some Action programme to combat his poor behaviour (biting and kicking the carers at nursery). Apparently he may have to have an Independent Educational Programme to carry over to school in September. Marked for life!
I tried to suggest to my Ds's carer that it was not atypical behaviour for a nearly 4 year old, but she pursed her lips ddisapprovingly and assured me they were quite concerned. God! He can be a defiant little s**t, but he is generally a happy, friendly, curious little chap. Reading this thread has reassured me that he is not necessarily heading for a lifetime of hooliganism and delinquency. Thankyou all for your honesty. And yes, we have the stick (and stone) collection too.