What would your take be on this......? Feel guilty but unsure of leader's reaction

[lisalisa]

First, I must hold my hands up and say I have done something unprecedented in 12 years of parenting and in 5 kids - I actually forgot to pick up my child from an activity this evening [blush seems to sheepish an emoticon for this deep embarrassment]. There are reasons I forgot - going through a hard time but won't go into that now and its anyway no excuse.

I realised what had happened whilst in the middle of having my shopping checked out in Tesco. I left the shopping and went to a payphone ( mobile not charged) to call teh mother of the other girl dd goes to this activity with and with whom we rota. She was very gracious and just concerned that I was ok as - as she said ( thankfully)- I am always so reliable and notorious for being early everywhere and have never ever not turned up. Her dh had already gone to fetch teh girls.

The activity was held in a local community hall. It finished at 7.45pm . By 7.50pm the leader had to go on to a class and , apparantly having tried to contact me and the other girl's family , she told the girls she'd have to go to this class and they 'd have to come with her. The other girl's fatehr had already agreed to come and fetch the girls - a 5 min drive - but apparantly the leader said she couldn't wait and dd and the other girl ( we'll call her A) had to come with her.

She then proceeded to take them on a 20 minute walk in the freezing and pouring rain - its 2C where we are and really bucketing down. The girls were wearing just anorak type coats as teh activity is inside and all girls are normally dropped by car. When they got to the class teh girls ahd to sit on the floor whilst the class began both desparatley waiting for someone to get them adn both crying by now. What incensed A's father was that he had told the leader that he'd come straight away and asked how he was to find the girls if they are walking in the street and the leadeer replied that she couldn't wait and he'd have to circle the streets to find them or wait 20 mins until they arrived by foot to take them home. He did apparantly go roudn and round the streets looking but didn't arrive until 5 mins into class.

Both girls in tears and humiliated and soaking wet.

Now I know it is 1000% my fault - granted nad given. My only unease here ( and btw have ordered flowers for A's family by way of apology as well as grovelled on teh phone and apologised to my little dd too) is that this leader made 2 7 yr olds walk 20 miins in freezing rain with inadequate cold protection when really , IMVVVHO she should, as the adult in charge, whilst freely cursing me for making her late for her class, waited with them in teh warm for an adult to arrive and if ncessary missed her class.

Interested to know what other MNers take on this is.....

was it a class she was leading/teaching or simply attending?

I am a Rainbow and Brownie Guider, Lisalisa. Parents are sometimes late picking up their children. It happens. Sometimes it is inconvenient and annoying. But this leader was totally and utterly out of order. If I did that I would expect the parent to complain to the Divisional Commissioner who would come down on me like a ton of bricks. So the question you need to ask yourself is who do you complain to? Because she needs to be reported to somebody.

She should have absolutely have waited there!! What was she thinking? That is unbelievably out of order. I'd be furious!

Is she a rainbows/brownies leader?

couldn't the other dad have said to her 'wait and I'll take you onto your next class?'

agree out of order, and if the other dad was coming in the car he likely would have offered to drop her to her class anyway.

It sounds like she would have been at her next class quicker if she had waited and then walked on her own rather than taking a pair of seven year olds with her.
Does she have permission to do this? When I have signed my children up for nursery and out of school care I have always had to sign seperatly for them to be taken on walks or outings - that makes me wonder if there is some rule that says that you need specific consent for that kind of thing.
I wonder if her usual public liability insurance may not have covered her for this either.

If a group like brownies or a school etc are taking children away from the normal venue/school, they need written permission from the parents, unless it is to take the child to hospital in an emergency - or at least, that's my understanding.

Therefore the leader was utterly out of order to do what she did - even if the girls had been warmly wrapped up and dry, and happy to walk the distance!!

We all have forgetful moments, so please don't beat yourself up about this - I've got engrossed in doing something, and only realised at, or past, the last moment, and hurtled off to collect a child.

madlentileater - she was attneding a class not teaching it.

Aha ladyglencorapalliser - it was brownies - how did you know???? Hope it wasn't you although by your reaction pretty certain it wasn't!

It is interesting to see that you all think this is out of order. She is slightly strange this leader - abouit 50 with no kids herself and a very sarcastic and generally sympathyless attitude towards teh kids and mums. Not many brownies stay the course and she has quite a bad reputation. My eldest dd went about 5 yrs ago and stayed 2 years and enjoyed it - my dd2 ( to whom this happened tonight)has been going for a fwe months and really loves it.

i am a bit reluctant to complain either to her or certainly higher as dd does love it there and would cerrtainly impact on her.

Harpomarx - with hindsight yes he should have and maybe he did - I have'nt asked. The father is however ill ( which makes me feel even more like a first class shit for forgetting) =- he only has 20% lung capactiy at the moment and probalby thought only of how quickly he could get home ( I am guessing).

She sounds extremely strange. I can't believe that somebody who has undergone the leader training would think that was acceptable. I would find a different group.

Damn right it wasn't me LisaLisa. Phone the Divisional Commissioner, I would.
As far as the taking them out bit is concerned though, yes you do need written permission but because we take the Brownies on quite a few outings we do an annual permission slip rather than doing a new one for every expedition.

the other thing that does trouble me is the more general point of taking them away from the venue where anything could have happened. Dd2 knows not to go off with strangers and whilst she knows this leader not to be a stranger the concept of going off with her away from the venue ( and familiarity ) with her made her very uncomfortable ( and me uncomfortable too).

OK definitely out of order.
Put her needs above the girls.

We don't have an annual permission slip ladyglencorapalliser. So you think this was wrong> What would the DC do?I don't want her to lose her licence or whatever it may be that she needs to be a brownie leader as i don't want to ruin it for the rest of the brownies. I just feel uneasy..

So, she was going to attend a class and not run another class? Well, she's a twit for organising her life in such a way that she's only got 20 mins between Brownies and another class to go to! I can't believe she only waited 5 mins! I'm a Rainbow leader too and have just waited! No-one ever intentionally leaves a child at Rainbows(or Brownies) fgs!

It's just so, so wrong, on so many levels! Considering how extra careful I know Guiding to be on the child protection, safety t&c etc etc to be. I'm afraid, I'd be seriously looking for another Brownie Unit and make sure your District Commissioner knows what has happened.

Another Brownie leader here.

She does sound strange. I have lost count of the number of times that I have missed my evening class because I'm waiting for parents who consistently arrive late to pick up the Brownies but it never occurred to me to take the stragglers with me!

It is definitely wrong lisa. She won't lose her warrant - they're desperate for leaders! She might need some more training though.

I agree with the others.

So you were late. It happens!

There is absolutely no way she should have left the building with the children.

I totally understand your reluctance to complain, and you will have to make your own decision on that, but please, please do not beat yourself up about this.

We ALL forget things now and then and this stupid woman should have been calmly reassuring the girls that a slight mistake had happened and someone was on the way for them, and they were not to worry and of course she will stay with them till dad of A gets there etc etc.

She made a little cock up into a HUGE problem with two upset, wet and cold children and some very upset and angry parents.

What a stupid, stupid woman! (her, not you)

Actually, I don't know what the divisional commissioner would do. Probably just tell her off, I should think. But I think she should be made aware of your concerns so she can make sure she lets this guider know that she is not allowed to do that.
I think a lot of us volunteers are prone to moan from time to time that SOME (not all) parents take us for granted, forgetting that we are volunteers and use us as free childcare, but ultimately we take on responsibility for the children when they are in our care and we have to take that responsibility just as seriously as if we were paid childcare workers. This woman was NOT doing that.

Brown Owl or whoever she is sounds like a Class A bully to me. What a cow. Taking out her bad temper on two little girls - should be ashamed of herself.

Yes, I would guess that she would be forcefully reminded by her district commissioner - sorry that sounds like something from Somerset Maugham - that taking the girls away from the meeting place without a second adult present is against all guiding rules.

Oddly, though (in my view), we were told during training that our responsibility towards the girls ends at the same time as the meeting and that we would not therefore be doing anything wrong if (say) we let the girls walk off on their own into the dark and stormy night. I don't - I insist that they are collected by a responsible adult - but I do sometimes think of that when I get a phone call 20 minutes after the meeting ended, informing me that a parent is still waiting for a bus.

Ihave just spoken to the other mum and feel even more uneasy. She says that when she told brown owl ( the leader) that her dh was on the way and would be 5 mins ( it is a 5 mins drive) brown owl said she couldn't wait and would start walking. The other mum got panicked and said something liek " Oh please wait - dont take them with you - how will my dh find them " to which she was greeted by a dial tone as brown owl had disconnected. Subsequent attempts to get through to her phone went to voicemail.

My dd is a bit traumatised by this - she kept asking me why I didn't come to pick her up and why she had to walk in the rain and why brown owl couldn't wait for A's dad.

There is an outing in 2 weeks time when the girls will be returned at 9.15pm after travelling by train ( there is no school next day as half term hence the late hour) but I find myself uneasy about trusting dd to her care and especially on a train and especially late at night.

I think you should contact your DIVISION commissioner actually. She's the next step up after District commissioner. She may be a better option tbh. District commissioners are often Guiders within the district, so chances are she is regular friend of Brown Owl, so she'll just tell her to not do it again. Division Commission however, is one step removed and will not be happy at all.

Any other Guiders agree?

Blimey lisa, I think she sounds a bit unhinged.