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What would your take be on this......? Feel guilty but unsure of leader's reaction

63 replies

lisalisa · 09/02/2009 22:25

First, I must hold my hands up and say I have done something unprecedented in 12 years of parenting and in 5 kids - I actually forgot to pick up my child from an activity this evening [blush seems to sheepish an emoticon for this deep embarrassment]. There are reasons I forgot - going through a hard time but won't go into that now and its anyway no excuse.

I realised what had happened whilst in the middle of having my shopping checked out in Tesco. I left the shopping and went to a payphone ( mobile not charged) to call teh mother of the other girl dd goes to this activity with and with whom we rota. She was very gracious and just concerned that I was ok as - as she said ( thankfully)- I am always so reliable and notorious for being early everywhere and have never ever not turned up. Her dh had already gone to fetch teh girls.

The activity was held in a local community hall. It finished at 7.45pm . By 7.50pm the leader had to go on to a class and , apparantly having tried to contact me and the other girl's family , she told the girls she'd have to go to this class and they 'd have to come with her. The other girl's fatehr had already agreed to come and fetch the girls - a 5 min drive - but apparantly the leader said she couldn't wait and dd and the other girl ( we'll call her A) had to come with her.

She then proceeded to take them on a 20 minute walk in the freezing and pouring rain - its 2C where we are and really bucketing down. The girls were wearing just anorak type coats as teh activity is inside and all girls are normally dropped by car. When they got to the class teh girls ahd to sit on the floor whilst the class began both desparatley waiting for someone to get them adn both crying by now. What incensed A's father was that he had told the leader that he'd come straight away and asked how he was to find the girls if they are walking in the street and the leadeer replied that she couldn't wait and he'd have to circle the streets to find them or wait 20 mins until they arrived by foot to take them home. He did apparantly go roudn and round the streets looking but didn't arrive until 5 mins into class.

Both girls in tears and humiliated and soaking wet.

Now I know it is 1000% my fault - granted nad given. My only unease here ( and btw have ordered flowers for A's family by way of apology as well as grovelled on teh phone and apologised to my little dd too) is that this leader made 2 7 yr olds walk 20 miins in freezing rain with inadequate cold protection when really , IMVVVHO she should, as the adult in charge, whilst freely cursing me for making her late for her class, waited with them in teh warm for an adult to arrive and if ncessary missed her class.

Interested to know what other MNers take on this is.....

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TrulyMadBadandDeeply · 09/02/2009 23:41

Maureen - To answer your question, I'd say start with the district commissioner, then go to the divisional/county comissioner (depending on what the local structure is) if the answer is not adequate/reassuring. I take your point that Brown Owl and the District Commissioner may be chums but, if she's been around a while, she may well be chums with the divisional commissioner too and (in my view) you need to start at the lowest level and work your way up. But I'm quite new to this and am basing my view as much on my experience of complaints systems at work as I am on my Guiding experience.

It sounds more and more as if this Brown Owl was trying to make a point about prompt pick-up. She needs a wake-up call now, as her actions do not fit with the spirit of Guiding or its policies!

MaureenMLove · 09/02/2009 23:49

Yes agreed. It's best I suppose, since everyone works differently. I know if someone had a complaint in our District, they would probably get more of a result speaking to the Division Commissioner.

You should have the details of both people on paperwork that was given to you when DD started btw.

lisalisa · 09/02/2009 23:51

Do you not think its better to speak to brown owl first? I think if I complain higher up then i will need to move dd to another brownie pack as she will hardly be flavour of the month with this brown owl. I am sure she would expect me to discuss any problems I may have with her first rather than go over her head so to speak?

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scienceteacher · 09/02/2009 23:58

If it is a Guiding event (rainbows/brownies/guiding), the leader should have informed her district commissioner that she was taking the girls outside of the normal meeting place. She should also have done a risk assessment, and had parental permission.

She really should not have organised another event on a meeting evening, so close to the end of the meeting time.

dearprudence · 10/02/2009 00:01

Agree that the leader was out of order. How distressing for both families and the girls.

Don't feel guilty for forgetting. I took my 6yo DS to slimming world last week - I was just weighing in then leaving. He went to sit down and read his comic while I queued up. I was about to get weighed (and then leave) when he appeared by my side. I had totally forgotten I had him with me! I literally felt sick as I was within 2 minutes of leaving and I don't know when I'd have remembered him.

I understand that once you've complained you've soured the relationship your DD will have with this leader, but I'm not sure there's an alternative in this case.

TrulyMadBadandDeeply · 10/02/2009 10:05

(Just one more thing. I don't think it's unreasonable for Brown Owl to have enrolled in a class after Brownies and to expect parents to pick up the girls promptly so that she can get there. Having given up her time for Brownies, she's quite entitled (in my view) to go and do something for herself and the class she's doing may not run at a different time or day. I'm sure it's not intentional, but there does seem to be an element in some posts here of 'how dare Brown Owl arrange something for her own benefit'.

But where I think she has gone wrong is in not accepting that if parents are late, it may mean that she has to be late for her own class. It's very annoying (I speak from experience of all of this) but it's unavoidable. Frogmarching the Brownies across town isn't acceptable.)

funtimewincies · 10/02/2009 12:52

Another ex-Brownie Guider adding her support. Sorry to hear that you and your daughter have had such a bad experience with what should be a rewarding organisation to belong to .

My advice to that particular leader...

  1. Accept that if parents are late (that's life after all) she'll be late for her class. If it's the same parent again and again, talk to him/her about it.
  2. Do not take the children away from the normal meeting place without permission. If they are knocked down by a car, you will be sued and possibly prosecuted.
  3. If the children are wet, cold and, above all, CRYING, there is a clue that all is not well with the situation and you've not handled it as best you could.

Please make her Division Commissioner aware of the situation and think very carefully before letting her go on any Pack Holidays with this woman!

funtimewincies · 10/02/2009 12:54

Speak to the woman herself first of course before going higher up, as that's the first question the commissioner will ask!

lisalisa · 10/02/2009 12:56

Funny enough she is not licensed to do pack holidays - says she doesn't want to be but I wouldn't send dd in any case with her.

Still really mulling over situation. Dd desparately wants to continue brownies as does A and it seems pointless in that case to "complain" higher up as if I complain to Brown Owl and she accepts that she was wrong ( which I actually don't think she will) then surely purpose achieved in preventing it happening again? I do worry that if it happened again due to say car accident or other worrying circumstance that i would most definately not want her to take my child out of hte venue and to wherever she was going that night.

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funtimewincies · 10/02/2009 13:02

Speak to her and politely make it very clear (with a witness) that you do not give her permission to take your child anywhere without your express consent. If she tries to suggest that your dd is no longer welcome, complain higher up or directly to the Guide Association because what she did was completely out of order and contravened any insurance the association had. Headquarters are very tight on insurance rules, as they don't like things that might result in a large bill or a lawsuit !

I loved running Pack Holidays .

lisalisa · 02/03/2009 21:56

Updating this thread.

tonight i spoke to brown owl.

i kept dd off brownies for last 2 weeks and they had half term.

Started by apologising for not turning up ( profusely) and then gingerley touched on issue of not being happy that dd made to walk in rain for half an hour and then to sit on floor in evening class etc. To my shock brown owl was totally unrepentant and more or less screamed at me in front of dd and 2 other brownies and one mum ( we went early so as to deal with the issue before the hall was full of brownies) that what did I expect her to do - miss her evening class and that she was not a babysiter and that she would be doing exactly the same thing again and again and again if necessary.

I dealt with it all relatively calmly whilst all the while thinking that she must be a real live nutter. I told her that whilst she hd a right to be very annoyed ( and that I would possibly be too until I found out circumstances ) she did , yes, have to wait at the brownies venue adn miss her class if necessary as she was the responsbile adult in charge of 2 little 7 yr olds and could not cart them off around town in the cold rainy night just becuase she had another commitment ( all the while I was stressing the point that she could be furious with me and I wuold accept that and whole heartedly apologise but the decision she made was wrong headed). She would not have that and said she was not a baby sitting service and that if parents cann't be bothered to turn up they have to accept the consequences

AFter debating this for a while I then told her that it was agains brownie regualtions for her to leave the venue with brownies without carrying out a risk assessment and having written permission. She flatly denied this and said she wanted names and phone numbers as to who I'd spoken to and siad the DC would fully support her and endorses this type of decision she made.

She even went so far as to say that she ahd phoned tehother parent and had been given permission to cart the children around town whereas in fact the other mum had begged her to wait and sshe had slammed the phone down!

It finally ended after 10 mins watched by 3 scared brownies ( including my own) when i calmly asked her if she was prepared to agree not to remove my daughter from the premises again without my consent ( I gave her the example of what if I or the rota mum were in a car accident/run over by a bus/ hospitalised - she doesn't actually know the real circs of why I did nto turn up which makes it worse as there may genuinely have been a family emergency ) and she refuse to agree it saying I was unreasonable and that afer hours she was fully entitled to either leave them there unattended () or to take them with her.

My daughter has been in floods of tears tonight about scary shouting brown owl and has needed a lot of reassurnace.
I fully plan to complain to the dc .

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MaureenMLove · 02/03/2009 22:06

What a pleasant lady! Good for you for standing your ground though. Would she like the names and addresses of all the guiders on this thread? She'll be sorry....

Hope you get somewhere with the DC, keep updating!

lisalisa · 02/03/2009 22:44

MaureenMLove- she seemed convinced that her DC authorises this and insistent on names and numbers etc? how do I pitch this to DC and should I go higher than dC?

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cat64 · 02/03/2009 22:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

lisalisa · 02/03/2009 23:00

Thanks - bumping for a guide leader.....

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Stayingsunnygirl · 02/03/2009 23:09

Not a guide leader, but I am absolutely appalled at this, and cannot imagine that the DC or any other responsible person in the Guiding hierachy will approve of either her actions or her attitudes!

I hope that your dd isn't put off brownies/guides by this - is there perhaps another pack she could join?

trixymalixy · 02/03/2009 23:10

She sounds completely unhinged!!!

Are there no other brownie's near you that your DD could go to?

She sounds like the kind of person who would pick on your DD because of this.

MadBadandDangerousToKnow · 02/03/2009 23:17

Am Guide leader. Going off to see whether our policies are available online ... will report back.

herbietea · 02/03/2009 23:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Tangle · 02/03/2009 23:20

I'm that she's behaved in this way - it doesn't make it sound as though she cares for the children very much, does it .

Do you know the DC? My 1st guess would be that she's bluffing and that even if she and the DC are friends, the DC would be more professional than to support her unless it really IS accepted practice (which I can't believe it to be).

I've no direct experience of the Brownies, but I'd probably write to the DC (if you're really worried about the familiarity then CC to the next level) and outline what happened. I'd express concern that:

  • the BO took children away from the venue without their parents' permission.
  • the BO took the children on a long walk in inclement weather for which they were not equiped.
  • the BO left the children in some considerable emotional distress.
  • the BO does not see that she has done anything wrong and has not suggested a way in which things could be done differently to avoid the children being put through an experience they clearly found traumatic should a similar situation occur.

I'd ask for clarification on the procedures that need to be followed before children are removed from a known venue as there seems to be a misunderstanding between the BO and parents.

I might mention that I was concerned the BO was putting herself at risk of legal action should anything happen to the children, and that she was potentially putting the Guiding Association in a difficult position through her actions.

I would request a reply in writing.

Whatever you do do, make sure you have things written down now (before you start to forget the details), and put all further correspondance in writing, just in case you do need to escalate it within the organisation).

Hope you can get some kind of useful response, and that your DD recovers soon.

roisin · 02/03/2009 23:45

Crikey lisalisa She sounds very stressed and argumentative and confrontational. I'd be quite wary about leaving my dc in the care of such a person.

You definitely need to complain to the DC: she's so completely in the wrong here.

Of course it is irritating if parents don't turn up on time for collecting, but her response is utterly unreasonable.

LadyGlencoraPalliser · 02/03/2009 23:50

I'll be honest, I would go one higher than the DC and complain to the Divisional Commissioner, simply because I suspect that she would be in a better position to deal with it and have had more relevant training. But to one or the other complain you must. I am a Guider, I would NEVER behave like this and I don't know one who would. We often have to wait around because a parent is late for one reason or another, it happens. You might find it irritating or inconvenient, but you just have to wait.

LauriefairycakeeatsCupid · 02/03/2009 23:58

would it have been ok with you if they had both been left at the hall rather than her take them with her?

So that they would have been there when A's dad picked them up?

MadBadandDangerousToKnow · 03/03/2009 00:13

OK. This is what I've found so far.

The Guiding Manual is the main policy document and the rules by which Guiding units operate. The Safety and safeguarding policy says -

This is the health and safety policy of Girlguiding UK.

Girlguiding UK?s policies and related statements provide a structure in which guiding can take place safely, consistently and in accordance with legislation. Policies must be followed by Girlguiding UK?s members and by recognised volunteers involved in delivering or supporting guiding. These policy statements are supported by further information and resources to ensure that our members put the policies into practice.

Policy statement
It is the policy of Girlguiding UK to make every effort to safeguard its members from physical, sexual and emotional harm while participating in guiding activities. The Association takes all reasonable steps to ensure that, through relevant procedures and training, children, young people and adults taking part in guiding activities do so in a safe environment.

Under Safeguarding the membership, the Manual says -

All Leaders, instructors and other adults, whether female or male, have an obligation to avoid creating distressing situations. The trust required between Leader or instructor and participant is fundamental to the learning process and therefore should not be jeopardised. For this reason those working with girls and young women must follow these guidelines.

Other adults present
Leaders, instructors and other supporters should avoid situations where they are alone with a girl or young woman. Ideally, the third person present should be a female adult who knows the girl or young woman. This precaution protects all parties by removing the feeling of threat from an insecure participant, and by providing a witness if an accusation of improper behaviour is made.

The General rules and advice for all activities say -

ALL ACTIVITIES
When planning and undertaking activities that require a change to the normal meeting place, eg a visit to the local park, sports field, theatre or ice rink, the Guider must consider:

  • whether the activity is appropriate to the age and ability of each participant.
  • whether the location, conditions and time of day are appropriate.
  • whether all the participants are wearing clothing appropriate for the activity and weather.
  • how to minimise damage to the environment.
  • On the day, the Guider must have:
  • a basic first aid kit.
  • parental permission for all participants if relevant.
  • a list of contact phone numbers with her at all times, or in an easily accessible place, eg a first aid box. The list should include:
  • home contact.
  • home Commissioner or nominee.
  • Commonwealth Headquarters (020 7834 6242 during office hours 9.00 am to 5.00 pm) or Scottish Headquarters
  • County, Country or Region PRA.
  • participants? next of kin.
  • host.
  • emergency services in area where the activity is taking place.
Parents or guardians of Rainbow Guides, Brownie Guides and Guides, as well as the District Commissioner, should be informed of plans. The individual needs of all participants ? medical, dietary, faith and cultural ? must be taken into account. If the activity is not being organised within guiding, but is instead being provided by an outside organisation, whether on a commercial or purely voluntary basis, some basic precautions should be taken before any contract or other agreement is signed. Check that the provider: * is already known to guiding as a responsible organiser of the activity. * is a member of the appropriate activity organisation. * has given evidence of insurance cover. * has carried out appropriate recruitment procedures for child protection and has a child protection policy.

It may also be worth searching the parents' pages of the Guiding website - as it's late I'm just skimming.

Incidentally, I was told when I was training that our responsibility for the Brownies (sorry I said earlier I was a Guide leader, that was a slip of the keyboard - I meant to say Guider) ends when the meeting ends and it is the parent's responsibility to ensure the Brownie gets home safely. In other words, if parents turn up half an hour late - it does happen more often than I'd like - we are entitled to leave the Brownie in the hall and go home. But, however tempting it may be when you have plans for the rest of the evening, I have never known of any Guider who has actually done it and we all dutifully sit in the hall while our dinner combusts/grows cold/our babies go to bed without a goodnight kiss from mummy/our evening class starts without us.

Please let us know what happens next.

lisalisa · 03/03/2009 10:54

Thank you all - excellent repsonses.

I am going to phone Divisional Commissioner. I will try to get her number from the website helpline.

i am a bit that the resonsiblity ends when teh brownie meeting ends so that if parents turn up late the leader may leave the brownie in the hall and go home. That does not make any sense. What if harm came to them? Surely it is akin to a school saying that its' responsiblity ends at 3.45pm and that it can lock gates and leave child to fend for itself.

What about if I had been in a car accident and not able to come at all. If this policy were strictly followed a 7 yr old brownie could be left in a hall for hours - and therefore at serious risk of coming to harm - forget about emotinal harm - but real physical harm ( the brownie may try to walk home unaccompanied or be accosted/attacked etc) . I just can't see that that bit can be right. If it is then i suppose she has done nothing wrong by taking them with her and the worse alternative would be that she just left them behind. Had she have done that and exposed them to the type of risk that wuold be inherent in a high st village hall left open with 2 unaccompanied 7 yr olds inside I would have gone absolutely stark raving bonkers and would probalby have gone to her house myself to read the riot act.

So in the light of that what she has done is technically prefereable.

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