What do people think of these punishments?

[MogTheForgetfulCat]

Bit of background... I work part-time (3 days) and have a nanny for my 2 boys on those days. She works the rest of the week as a nanny/housekeeper for another family (we don't know them, they live in another area) who also have 2 boys, 6 and 4.

Both boys are at school, and childcare on the other 3 days of the week for them is a local woman who does school runs and after school. This woman contacted my nanny this week to tell her that the mother had explained that they are using 2 particular punishments for the 4yo at the moment, because she wanted this woman to use them also, when necessary. They are putting him in a dark room, and putting him in a cold shower. This is because he is scared of the dark, and hates being cold, and so these punishments are designed to really "get through" to him.

The mother has not asked my nanny to use these punishments, and we suspect that this is because she knows my nanny (who is very experienced and very lovely) would say no and would express concern about their appropriateness.

I know all of this is third-hand, and my nanny has never witnessed anything of the sort, and doesn't know how long he is left in the dark/the shower (the woman didn't say how long it was meant to be for). She has also said that he is a very defiant little boy, who is fairly impervious to other sanctions, such as removal of privileges, sending to room etc. But the things he is being punished for are, to my mind, fairly trivial - back chat, throwing food, spitting etc. Hardly the crimes of the century, however infuriating they can be.

So my nanny is concerned, as am I - it's a bit bloody Dickensian, isn't it? I feel very sorry for him (a bit worried that, from what my nanny has said, he seems to be a bit of a family scapegoat, which is awful) and that these punishments are really very cruel.

Not sure what to do - think contacting social services seems a bit ott. Plus, this is an ostensibly very nice, middle class family (mum is a doctor) etc etc. But maybe if I contacted them, they could offer family therapy, or something? Or am I being a bleeding-heart sticky-beak? My gut reaction when my nanny told me this was that this was very wrong and upsetting, but thought I'd try to canvass some views from others.

Thanks in advance.

The cold showers is a real red flag. I have read a few accounts of child abuse (because I needed to for work, not something I would voluntarily do) and putting the child in a cold shower does seem to be quite a common feature. I also think that we all have an obligation to raise alarms when we have real concerns, and not think that someone else will. Some of the most prominent cases have had several points where someone thought about raising their concerns, and didn't. I just think I would feel absolutely awful if I was that person, and didn't help a child who desperately needed it. SS get a bad press, but this is the area they are trained in, and they are the best placed to take things forward. I know it's not first hand evidence, but if the family are asking another care giver to use such extreme sanctions then there is something significantly wrong. Abuse can happen in the most educated and wealthy households, as well as in the poorest and most drug ridden estates.

bump

Mog, rest assured you are doing the right thing. In an ideal world it should be the nanny who reports the incident (as she is the one who heard the mother's intentions and wishes first hand) but if she feels uncomfortable (and professionally she may do - she'll get no reference from these employers and there's a possibility that others might feel she will report on them if they hire her etc.) as long as she is willing to make a statement then there is no reason why you cannot be the person to let the authorities know.

Have you tried calling the NSPCC again to get some advice?

The suggestion that you should talk to the mother yourself is unfeasible. I don't know any mother in the world who would appreciate a stranger interfering in her child raising, and you could end up making things much worse for all involved.

The most important thing in all of this is that somebody - whether it be the nanny or you - lets someone who can help know. These parents need some help with their son. That is what SS are actually for - providing help to those who need it. SS are not supposed to be a "punishment", they are not there to split up families (although realistically this does happen). Of course it's horrible having someone tell you you need help and forcing it upon you, but what is the alternative?

I really hope that they have not started using this "punishment regime" yet, and that this will nip it all in the bud, make them realise their mistake, and provide them with new techniques to deal with their son's behaviour.

I've never seen Super Nanny resort to locking children in dark rooms...

Well put Youknownothing. I think it's important to point out that these parents need help.

Exactly, this family is out of control as far as discipline goes (and sounds very likely in the realms of abuse), so whether it's the child or the child and the parents who need help, you must do something.

These punishments are only the ones she admits to. God knows what else happens behind those doors, or could happen if you someone doesn't act. Please update us.

Have talked to DH about this a lot this weekend (about almost nothing else, tbh) and am finally resolved to call SS about this - assuming my nanny doesn't want to do it herself. I'm happy to do it, but can see it might be better coming from her (as the information is less remote than coming from me) - and she may be willing, as she doesn't need this family for a reference, she's been working for me longer than for them so would use me if needed.

As I said in a previous post, she's going to try and get more info this week. I'm happy to wait until she does so, as I'm pretty sure there's no imminent danger, and it would make any report more credible if we had more information about the use of these punishments - duration, frequency etc.

Will certainly come back and update - thanks again for all your advice and support.

Mog you are doing the right thing, just don't delay too long, this situation needs to be nipped in the bud and help provided for the family quickly. Even one more incident of this abuse is enough - it's an indication that they have lost the parental plot here. This is not acceptable and will not work in terms of behaviour management. You have to wonder what the families next step will be if the behaviour gets worse (which it inevitably will)?
Please don't delay too long.

That's good to hear mog. I think you are definately making the decision

have you just seen the 10 oclock news - the little girl who was killed and one of the things that (allegedly?) was done to her was shutting her in an unlit cupboard despite (or because of) the fact she was scared of the dark. Not saying this little boy's life is in danger, but I think shows that this kind of treatment definitely equals abuse.

bump?

Update for those who asked for it...

My nanny has now left this job. This was her last week, and she spent it subtly probing for more information - which she got (both from the other woman who looks after the boys, and the boys themselves). It turns out that these punishments are being used pretty regularly and systematically (by the parents only), and for fairly trivial (IMO) behaviour. She rang the NSPCC helpline herself the other day, and the woman she spoke to said it should be reported to SS (as had the man I spoke to). So she is going to do it tomorrow. I am certain she will follow through on this - I know she has given it a lot of thought. She's anxious about having to do it, but once she found out that this treatment wasn't just a one-off or occasional thing, that was the clincher.

I think it is good that she is going to do it - I would certainly have done it myself, but she is clearly closer to the situation, and able to give SS more bacckground info etc. But I think I will ask her to give SS my contact details - although I can't corroborate any of the relevant information, I can certainly confirm that my nanny wasn't sacked by this family (which I suspect they may claim, trying to present the allegations as a grudge) and vouch for her character.

So, who knows what will happen, but I am feeling really relieved that this is going to be done. Once again, thanks so much for all your very useful advice and support on this matter.

Well done Nanny, and you! That is great news that she is willing to report it. Such a shame that they have been using these punishments unchecked for a while

I really hope that this all works out for that little boy, and that his parents get some advice and support (which they listen to) - they are clearly oblivious to the fact that this is cruel behaviour on their part.

Oh god, those poor DC.

Well done to you and you Nanny for having the courage to do something.

That is awful. A child should never be left in a dark room or put in a cold shower.
I agre with others contact the SS.

i am afraid of the dark and the thought of being shoved in a room and someone holding the door shut scares me
never mind a 4 yr old
even worse someone turnign the shower on cold

yes 4 yr olds are infuriating but doing that is not teaching them good behaviouir

keep us updated

makes me wonder what on earth else goes on behind their closed doors

Well, I was (am) with warmslippers, a bit of Chinese whispers in the whole thing, I can imagine things being quite exagerated. I hope it doesn't mean making things worse when SS get involved.

I will definitely be much more careful in ever telling anyone what punishments we use, just in case it gets out in the wrong way.

Chinese whispers when the Nanny has spoken to the boys about it directly?

Chinese whispers when it was the parents who told the nanny about the punishments, to see if she would be willing to implement them?!

You might want to read it again lljkk.

I doubt Chinese whispers. I don't think the average 4yo has enough guile to think "If I exaggerate this I could get mum and dad into trouble, tee hee!" Also, my nanny's not thick - she would have been very careful to avoid using leading questions - we talked beforehand about how she might try to get more info, and she was very clear on the need to avoid that.

I know it's an awful situation, and none of us feel good about having to report it, but I'd feel an awful lot worse if nothing was done. If there really is nothing to it, I am confident that SS will see that.

Well done for giving your nanny the support to make a difference Mog.

I was hoping that it was Chinese Whispers/mis-understanding/exageration, but doesn't seem like it. I think it's better your Nanny is reporting it but good on both of you for doing something about it.

Hi there - have just caught onto this thread as only joined the site last night.

Oh my god - I was shocked to read the background.

I am a mother of three and a social worker of 20 years. I can tell you that these punishments would be taken extremely seriously, not least for the effect they would have on childrens emotional and psychological development (oh my, I sound like a text book).

But seriously, I am shocked that a nanny could use such punishments as it is using fear to control the child rather than teaching it anything.

roddersb - great to have the voice of experience on here

The nanny has not used the punishments at all, it is the parents who are using them, and who approached the nanny to see if she would be willing to implement them too Obviously being a rational individual the nanny never used the punishments and is now seeking help for the boy.

I hope this is now firmly in the hands of the SS and everything will improve for that little boy.

Once again, well done you Mog.

i feel sick .....this is child abuse mentaly and physicaly and emotional please please ring social services u have to be his voice because what happens when this doesnt work what next steps will they use ..god im cryin g now my 6 year old is just like what u said he is like but i just deal with him have done parent classes to have stratgies to use with him and it works god he is just a baby 4 years old poor little sole