What do people think of these punishments?

[MogTheForgetfulCat]

Bit of background... I work part-time (3 days) and have a nanny for my 2 boys on those days. She works the rest of the week as a nanny/housekeeper for another family (we don't know them, they live in another area) who also have 2 boys, 6 and 4.

Both boys are at school, and childcare on the other 3 days of the week for them is a local woman who does school runs and after school. This woman contacted my nanny this week to tell her that the mother had explained that they are using 2 particular punishments for the 4yo at the moment, because she wanted this woman to use them also, when necessary. They are putting him in a dark room, and putting him in a cold shower. This is because he is scared of the dark, and hates being cold, and so these punishments are designed to really "get through" to him.

The mother has not asked my nanny to use these punishments, and we suspect that this is because she knows my nanny (who is very experienced and very lovely) would say no and would express concern about their appropriateness.

I know all of this is third-hand, and my nanny has never witnessed anything of the sort, and doesn't know how long he is left in the dark/the shower (the woman didn't say how long it was meant to be for). She has also said that he is a very defiant little boy, who is fairly impervious to other sanctions, such as removal of privileges, sending to room etc. But the things he is being punished for are, to my mind, fairly trivial - back chat, throwing food, spitting etc. Hardly the crimes of the century, however infuriating they can be.

So my nanny is concerned, as am I - it's a bit bloody Dickensian, isn't it? I feel very sorry for him (a bit worried that, from what my nanny has said, he seems to be a bit of a family scapegoat, which is awful) and that these punishments are really very cruel.

Not sure what to do - think contacting social services seems a bit ott. Plus, this is an ostensibly very nice, middle class family (mum is a doctor) etc etc. But maybe if I contacted them, they could offer family therapy, or something? Or am I being a bleeding-heart sticky-beak? My gut reaction when my nanny told me this was that this was very wrong and upsetting, but thought I'd try to canvass some views from others.

Thanks in advance.

all childcare practitioners have a duty under safeguarding children legislation to act on all incidents where abuse is suspected. Therefore she MUST tell the relevant authorities of her concerns.

This isn't punishment, it's abuse.

PP, I see your point. Better since it's not third-hand then.

I think you should offer to phone them for her and then if they need to speak to her personally (which they will) they can do so. At least she won't feel entirely responsible then. Also, you will know that she's done it - there is the poss that she won't, for obv reasons.

It is child abuse and cruel punishments are not going to teach a four year old how to behave.

Children need explanation and reasoning. There are plenty of more human and effective ways to sanction a four year old.

omg that's horrible. poor kid will always be afraid of the dark . that poor boy.

That poor boy.

FWIW I think NSPCC might be a good starting point.

That is abuse.

You should phone the police, or social services. You can do that anonymously if you like. They will probably investigate as those sort of 'punishments' come under the category of unreasonable chastisement and so are abusive.

Even more so to a 4 year old

I don't know why I should feel more outraged that these behaviours are being perpetrated by doctors. Something to do with them being educated and not therefore having an excuse not to know that this is outright abuse. I shouldn't feel more outraged and yet somehow I do

Just been talking to DH about it. He is concerned that it will be entirely obvious where the report to SS came from. I don't think it matters - they won't know if it was me, my nanny or the other childcare woman, surely? And I agree with whoever it was that said I need to step up to it.

Also, my nanny is leaving this job very shortly (basically because the mum has been a bitch to her on a number of occasions - but I am certain, by the way, that this information about the 4yo is in no way revenge, or made up/exaggerated by my nanny because of that - she is just not that sort of person) so it won't matter even if the mum thinks it's my nanny who has shopped her, as she won't be able to make life difficult for her as an employee because of it. And she doesn't know me from Adam, so no issue there, I think.

It does mean that there isn't much time to get relevant additional info, so will ring NSPCC tomorrow and see what they advise. Might also speak to my HV, who goes against type by being very nice and extremely helpful/informative. And need to speak to my nanny and let her know what I'm going to do before I contact SS. Sorry, thinking out loud now. Thanks again for these responses - very helpful, you've hardened my resolve.

Glad to hear you are going to sort something out about this, what a horrendous way to treat a child.

Agree with everything you're going to do. The thought of terrifying any child, not just your own, in that way is sickening. One of my DCs is terrified of spiders ... I would NEVER force her into contact with them. Such a betrayal of trust.

Just rang NSPCC, and all their advisers on the 24hr helpline are busy. God, how depressing is that? Anyway, will ring back tomorrow.

Well done - very hard to do.

And don't worry too much - they probably won't actually be able to do much in a criminal/abuse charge term and so won't come back on you or nanny - but it will certainly give them a massive wake up call. Imagine being so arrogant as to ask your nanny/woman who helps to implement such a punishment?

Totally arrogant and totally lost her grip on reality.

Got through to NSPCC this morning - they say it's abuse and should be referred to SS. Going to speak to my nanny today, and ring SS later - or may get NSPCC to make the referral for me, depending on how my nanny feels about it.

Hope at the very least this will indeed be a massive wake up call to the family - poor boy. Maybe some parenting classes or something will be offered, I don't know. Anyway, thanks again so much for all your responses - really helpful.

I am making myself late for playschool drop off to catch up on thjis thread,

Mog, you have done the right thing. Maybe you have just saved this little boys life, (ok, extreme maybe but where does this kind of thing start and end)

Well done.

Well done for taking action Mog.

You've definitely done the right thing. That poor wee boy. I do wonder what can be done about parents who honestly think that those "punishments" are an acceptable way to modify their child's behaviour. What hope is there?

How disgusting. That poor poor boy. Well done on getting involved.

well done you have done the right thing, by turning a blind eye we are guilty by default.It is all of our responsibility to protect the vulnerable.

DON't call SS! You don't know the whole story. Also allthough SS do do their best, they do make mistakes and your contact could start an unfair process which results in the kids being taken into care. That is very unlikely to be better for them. If you are THAT concerned talk to the mother directly (I know you don't know her but if you are willing to contact SS you are allready interferring in her life). Ask for contact details from your nany and write her a letter/call her. I know you are concerned for the kids but since you don't know them PLEASE give the parents the benefit of the doubt. Contacting SS would in my opinion be rather evil right now. People often exagerate things and when they have been passed on a few times they can look terrible. PLEASE talk to the mum. Think about if this was you, if you nany was telling someone about something you do? Hard to imagine as you are the perfect parent? All of us occassionally do the odd thing that could look bad from the outside taken out of context

obviously if it is true then it should be stopped, I am not defending the treatment just the riskyness of assuming its a bad as it sounds and hasn't been exageratted

Are you sure the punishments have actually been carried out?

Like nicewarmslippers I'm not defending it but you need to be very sure this hasn't been exagerated.

A 4 year old is going through a defiant and difficult stage and starting biting smaller children, he laughs when told off. The parents decide this can't go on and they need to get through to him. They then calmly put him in a room with the light off for a minute. This snaps him out of his assumed hilarity and he crys and then the parents open the door calmly and then sit him down with a calm cuddle and explain why biting is bad.

Does that sound like it deserves reporting to SS?

The story you heard could essentially be this sort of disiplining and really not a problem. The way it was told - empahsising that they use the punishment of a dark room BECAUSE he is scared of it makes it sound horrendous but maybe thats short hand for 'its the only thing that gets him to snap out of it'

Please think hard if any of your parenting could be misinterpretted. I bet it could.