What do people think of these punishments?

[MogTheForgetfulCat]

Bit of background... I work part-time (3 days) and have a nanny for my 2 boys on those days. She works the rest of the week as a nanny/housekeeper for another family (we don't know them, they live in another area) who also have 2 boys, 6 and 4.

Both boys are at school, and childcare on the other 3 days of the week for them is a local woman who does school runs and after school. This woman contacted my nanny this week to tell her that the mother had explained that they are using 2 particular punishments for the 4yo at the moment, because she wanted this woman to use them also, when necessary. They are putting him in a dark room, and putting him in a cold shower. This is because he is scared of the dark, and hates being cold, and so these punishments are designed to really "get through" to him.

The mother has not asked my nanny to use these punishments, and we suspect that this is because she knows my nanny (who is very experienced and very lovely) would say no and would express concern about their appropriateness.

I know all of this is third-hand, and my nanny has never witnessed anything of the sort, and doesn't know how long he is left in the dark/the shower (the woman didn't say how long it was meant to be for). She has also said that he is a very defiant little boy, who is fairly impervious to other sanctions, such as removal of privileges, sending to room etc. But the things he is being punished for are, to my mind, fairly trivial - back chat, throwing food, spitting etc. Hardly the crimes of the century, however infuriating they can be.

So my nanny is concerned, as am I - it's a bit bloody Dickensian, isn't it? I feel very sorry for him (a bit worried that, from what my nanny has said, he seems to be a bit of a family scapegoat, which is awful) and that these punishments are really very cruel.

Not sure what to do - think contacting social services seems a bit ott. Plus, this is an ostensibly very nice, middle class family (mum is a doctor) etc etc. But maybe if I contacted them, they could offer family therapy, or something? Or am I being a bleeding-heart sticky-beak? My gut reaction when my nanny told me this was that this was very wrong and upsetting, but thought I'd try to canvass some views from others.

Thanks in advance.

Wouldn't say it is the op's judgement call to make. If all entirely innocent, then SS will see that and nothing more will happen.

I understand what you say about misinterpreting but not the ops judgement call to make -- it IS a harsh punishment as described so it needs looking at by someone objective and trained.

I just have some reservations about the third-handedness of the information.

Sounds awful. The poor little boy?

These are not punishments. They are way OTT. It would make me very uncomfortable. I think I would want to talk to someone, even if just anonymously initially, about this.

If anyone should speak to SS it should be the nanny. IMO

The parents obviously need some guidance on how to handle their sons behaviour - is there anyone (Nanny?) who could suggest they seek help from Behavioural Therapist or similar.

I'm not sure what you should do but that is discusting, as another poster said 'Using a child's personal fears as punishments'. That is quite sick behaviour.

Also you mentioned the mother is a doctor and they are a middle class family. I'm not saying this is the case with all middle class families defintly not but people assume that poor families or families on benifits are more likely to do this type of thing. But sometimes the families that you would expect to behave properly just dont and treat their children in a bad way as they expect the children to behave like little grown ups from birth.

It is a terrible way to treat a child, and as a parent I cannot imagine treating my dc like this. The child could be trumertised by this.

I also think that the nanny should be the one to report this as she knows the family.

I agree, should be the nanny to take action. Aren't childcare proffessionals supposed to have child protection guidelines?

Mog - only just seen this thread but admire you for seizing the chance to help this little boy. Your OP brought teas to my eyes.

If the parents are so awful then who cares if they join the dots as to who shopped them? Personal safety is obviously a concern for people doing the reporting, but they are obviously cowards to pick on their small boy so I wouldn't hesitate either.

Also, looks better when the nanny is still in their employment, as reporting it afterwards could lead them to say she's doing it out of bitterness and pretend they asked her to leave etc.

Anyway, horrible situation, well done to you.

I hear what you say, nicewarmslippers, and others who have reservations about the remoteness of the information. Have not yet called SS. The plan is for my nanny to try to get more information from the other woman (who, incidentally, has not used these punishments, even though the mum asked her to) this week about how often they've been used, for how long etc.

Unfortunately, this is my nanny's last week with this family, and I know that it will look really bad for any call to SS to be made after she leaves, and will give the family scope to say that they sacked her (they didn't) and she is doing it for revenge (no). I also know that calling SS on a family is NOT something to be done lightly, and it certainly won't be - there are lots of potential repercussions that I have thought about a lot this weekend. It's just that the NSPCC person I spoke to was so unequivocal that this was abuse - although i take the point that it may have been exaggerated in the re-telling from this other woman.

The other thing my nanny is going to do is speak to her own mum, who is a social worker (although no longer frontline), and find out what sort of action is likely to be taken - letter, visit etc. And we will decide what to do.

I am far from a perfect parent, and am aware how things could be misinterpreted when seen/heard out of context etc. But I felt very worried when my nanny told me about it, and she is also worred - not least because the 4yo's behaviour has got worse over the last few weeks (possibly a case of no shit, sherlock there, I think...) and she is worried that things could escalate and the family needs an authority figure to step in and point out that they are going about things the wrong way, and maybe offer some practical help?

I would be willing to speak to the mum myself, but understand that she can be pretty arrogant and convinced of her own rightness in everything (this is my own judgement formed from things my nanny has told me about the way she has been treated as their employee - NOT from any bitching by my nanny, she is far too nice for that! She told me because I am an employment lawyer, and she wanted some advice about the legality of something they were proposing regarding her employment), and so think it would be better coming from elsewhere. But I will think about it. Just waiting to see what information my nanny can get this week, and will then decide what to do. Horrible dilemma - would be horrified to think of SS knocking on my door, and yet I feel so sad for the little boy. If I do contact SS, I will certainly explain the third-hand nature of the information, and presumably they would take that into account.

I didn't realise the mum had asked the other woman to punish in the same way too - IMO that would lessen the chances that it has been somehow exaggerated in the re-telling. I think you are right, if you contact SS explain how you got the info - it is down to them to verify it then.

Firstly you must know if the actions you have been told have actually been carried out and not said as a heat of the moment thing, for example, i posted in a thread this morning saying i would cheerfully strangle my son, i wrote it and meant it as a joke, no way i would ever do it and would be extremely upset if anyone took it differently..

However, if what you describe has happened or is at the remotest RISK of happening..

This isn't punishment for being naughty, its ABUSE.
I know full well the damage the SS can do but i'm sorry, nothing in this is anything SS could 'take the wrong way'.. You must contact them in that case.

I can maybe see that leaving a child in the dark for a moment could be used as a calming mechanism, a 'time out' - but not as a punishment, and certainly not if he was afraid of the dark. But a cold shower?!? No.

I disagree with those that say that the onus is on the Nanny to ring. The onus is on all of us. All to often no one rings as it is not there place and then complaign the loudest that SS fail to act.

Yes, the cold shower was the thing that made me really think that something wasn't right - I'm sure most people have put children in their rooms to calm down, and shut the door. In which case I've put my DS1 in a dark(ish) room as a sanction - but he isn't afraid of the dark, and frightening him wasn't the intention, just a minute's breathing space for everyone. But I can't imagine stripping a child, him presumably protesting/crying all the while in fear of what's to come (and it would be fear, I think), and carrying on regardless to turn on the shower, put him in, maybe hold him in there? I know that I don't have all the relevant information yet, and I really hope that it turns out to have been exaggerated, but that struck me as very cruel and wrong behaviour.

Also, as someone said, the fact that the mum has asked this other carer to use the same punishments, presumably (I know I shouldn't be presuming...) setting out which behaviours might warrant this sort of punishment, makes me worry that the punishments are being used systematically, not as a one-off response to an extreme situation.

I just hope my nanny can get some more information this week, and maybe things will change when she does. But I think it looks like a carefully-worded call to SS (not anonymous - I don't see why I'd need to do that) explaining the source of the information and my relationship to it is the most likely outcome.

I feel like whatever I do will be "wrong" in some way. If I do nothing, I'm potentially letting the child down badly and allowing abusive behaviour to continue. If I contact SS, there may be all sorts of unwanted repercussions, and as I said earlier, bringing the sledgehammer of SS in to crack what MAY only be a nut is not something that I would do lightly. I've read articles about what it's like for families when SS come calling (there was one in the Guardian's Family section a few Saturdays ago) and it's not nice.

Have been thinking about it again this afternoon, and even if I called the other mum, told her what I know and threatened to talk to SS unless... Unless what? I would have no way of knowing if things had changed, got worse or what, because my nanny won't be working there from the end of this week. So i think it will have to be SS.

Yes do ring SS, OMG - these poor poor kids, when i think my DS has just got to the stage of being scared of the dark....

Supposedly well educated eh? feckers - pick up a book and try reading it.

I think my DS is highspirited not in a brattish way but needs to be TOLD at times, he has time out in porch (includes light and radiator) and never for more than 30s unless he doesnt say sorry - I feel bad about resorting to this when request/explaining hasnt worked.

It doesnt give you much faith when you hear stuff like this, it takes all sorts really i does

Id ring for you in fact

Sorry read your last post - yes its not nice for family, but what about that little one, how not nice is it for him and this person is supposedly in a position where ethical decisions are required reguarding patient care.

What if the family has reached breaking point to use such things and genuinely need help? What if behaviour gets worse with change of nanny and the parent does worse than this? I know that these are what ifs but maybe it is only a matter of time befoer that child or older one writes or draws something at school.

Aside from the actual punishments it is worsened by the fact that this mother thinks it reallt is ok to the point they consider normal to ask childminder to carry it out as well. This mother needs help.

I can understand why you are waiting for further info, but if my DS told me someone had done this to him I would be straight on phone.

Without a doubt, this is CA and SS need all the available info. They will have to do an assesment of parenting ability and the childs needs. They will not consider removing the child as the 1st, 2nd or even 3rd option before they have exhausted every other means to this child being safegaurded within his family. Talk to the person with 1st hand info and if you can get them to make the call great, if not do it yourself and help ss make the best assesment they can by furnishing info on who else (services, professionals etc including the nanny) is invoved with them.
This child and his family need help quickly before there is lasting trauma, and ss will get them the help they need.

I definatly agree you need to call SS. They won't come in and take the child away, but they will do their best to solve/improve the situation. None of us are experts and it isn't up to us to decide. It IS up to us to pass the information on to the people who know much more about it and can help that poor little boy. If the info is wrong (which it doesn't sounds like it is) then yes it is a bit annoying that the family have had to have a SS visit but it is better than the alternative.

At the end of the day, something needs to be done. Think of all the abuse cases you read about and wonder why nobody suspected anything or did anything about it? I honestly can't believe there are some people suggesting not to call.

totallyy agree with chloejessmeg re everyone sitting on their hands thinking they;re not the right ones to make a move. I know 4yos can be utterly infuriating, but this sort of treatment is just wrong, and the parents need to be told before they do some real harm to this little boy.

I just got to post again - would you allow DH/DP or anyone else (employer) to put you in a cold shower for getting something wrong? I read this thread earlier and havn't calmed down about it at all.

I work in education and have child protection training yearly - if a child disclosed this to me I would refer immediately (which is policy) and unforutantely I have had to refer things for less than a cold shower and this is IMHO as someone who is trained in child protection.

Dont mistake this for a judgement - it is as someone else said everyones duty to pass on info but not ours to decide. Still

I do hope this works out for the family as I am sure the mother intentions of achieving good behaviour are good, just wrong method IMO.

bump

Bump.

Please keep us updated OP. You sound like you really care anyway and by already phoning the nspcc you show you want to do somthing about it.

Please phone SS Asap though.

As a nanny, if I had a concern about child protection I would refer it on - I am just not in a position to make a judgement on something like that.