I can't take this any more, I'm going to go crazy...

[MrsThierryHenry]

...my 19 mo DS has been screaming and crying since 12.30 and is showing no signs of being able to get back to sleep. He's been going through separation anxiety but I'm pretty sure we passed the peak a couple of weeks ago. He falls asleep beautifully on his own, in his own cot at 8pm, but then wakes with a poo at some time in the wee small hours. After I've changed his nappy he then screams the place down, insistent that I sit with him in my arms until he's asleep.

I did it last night but refuse to get into the habit of cuddling him to sleep - he doesn't need it, he just wants to be cuddled. Instead I've been leaving him to cry for 5 mins at a time then going back to 'settle' him. For 2.5 long, painful, exhausting hours.

I've had absolutely no sleep tonight, the best I got was 10 mins in bed at 2am listening to him screaming. I'm supposed to be job searching tomorrow. How the hell can I cope with this?

I've no helpful suggestions just wanted to acknowledge your post. DS2 woke every 2 hours until his 2nd birthday when by some miracle and with nothing to do with anything I did or routine I changed suddenly slept throughout the night and has done ever since. I can only empathise having spent 2 years sitting on the sofa cuddling him or awake in bed while he fell asleep next to me only to wake when I took him back to his own bed.

I hope you get some sleep eventually.

Thanks so much for your sympathy! DH is in there now with him and he's quiet, however I really hope this doesn't mean he's cuddling him to sleep as it will not discourage him from doing the same tomorrow and the next day, etc.

Wish I had massive trust fund and didn't have to worry about earning a crust, then I'd be less concerned about how much sleep I get in the night.

It sure is hard when you have to work next day. Hopefully your dh has worked some magic.

Message withdrawn

I found that getting up for an hours was a better option than struggling and fighting for a couple of hours. I recorded a programme, would go downstairs, make a cup of tea, get comfortable with baby/toddler and watch programme. Keep all noise low and lights low. Sometimes the child would potter about for about half an hour and then come and be cuddled or would want cuddling straight off or be happy just to lie on the settee with me nearby. After an hour (sometimes a bit longer) they would fall asleep. Carry back to bed and enjoy a few hours sleep before morning. I've actually found myself with a child asleep but wanting to watch the end of my programme so not rushed them off to bed.

And yes, it can go on for quite a while. But it doesn't seem quite as bad if you know what is likely to happen and it's not just the never-ending feeling of "when will s/he go to sleep?

Also your statement "he doesn't need it, he just wants to be cuddled" if he needs cuddling then he "needs" it. Just as valid a need as food or drink imo.

I found that getting up for an hours was a better option than struggling and fighting for a couple of hours. I recorded a programme, would go downstairs, make a cup of tea, get comfortable with baby/toddler and watch programme. Keep all noise low and lights low. Sometimes the child would potter about for about half an hour and then come and be cuddled or would want cuddling straight off or be happy just to lie on the settee with me nearby. After an hour (sometimes a bit longer) they would fall asleep. Carry back to bed and enjoy a few hours sleep before morning. I've actually found myself with a child asleep but wanting to watch the end of my programme so not rushed them off to bed.

And yes, it can go on for quite a while. But it doesn't seem quite as bad if you know what is likely to happen and it's not just the never-ending feeling of "when will s/he go to sleep?

Also your statement "he doesn't need it, he just wants to be cuddled" if he needs cuddling then he "needs" it. Just as valid a need as food or drink imo.

It can be hard work but I found it easier to 'go with the flow'and accept that's the way it was than fight and struggle with it as I did with my first and that was a nightmare.

Sorry for the double post, pc acting up.

Thanks, knickers, I did get some sleep btw 3.30 and 8.

Thanks also for your suggestions, Juuule. It does make sense to go with the flow, but my concern is that I don't want him to get into new, bad patterns of doing this every night.

With regard to his 'need' for cuddles, there is some truth in what you say, and so far our approach with his sep anxiety has been to give him lots more cuddles and kisses when he asks for them. It's a lovely, cuddly time in our household at the mo! Somehow that all unravels when it's nighttime - especially when it's 3.30am and I've not had a wink of sleep.

Also I am so pressured to find work, and he's only in childcare for two days a week, so those days are like precious jewels to me. So I simply can't afford to 'risk' having a night of two hours' sleep and then end up unable to function on one of my rare jobsearch days. It's so hard!

Not that I expect life to be plain sailing, and believe me, I've coped well with my fair share of troubles in recent months. All I want is for him to sleep the way he used to - i.e. through the night!

Poor Mrs TH, a bit of separation anxiety is one thing but nightly poos is another. The one and only time dd has woken becasue of a poo, she was hysterical and took ages to settle - think she was upset at being woken in the first place, and seemed scared to be left alone with the treacherous body that had shocked her awake first time around!

Anyway - just wondered what you do to settle ds after his nightly poo? Can you go back to some part of his bed time ritual as part of re-settling? Song, story, drink of water, whatever? You probably already do, but just a thought - a familiar sleep cue can help a bit.

Also, if you feel he's cross and over tired rather than scared, it may be worth letting him cry for longer than 5 minutes. I'm not an advocate of CC, far from it, but sometimes 5 minutes can be the worst of both worlds - its long enough to seem very long to both of you, but not long enough for him to go to sleep.

I didn't feel ok going and leaving dd1 to cry herslf to sleep alone, at this age, but whenever I had a sense that she was angry and testing rather than genuinely scared or upset, I would say goodnight and then sit in an armchair in her room without saying a word. It never took more than 20 mins for her to go to sleep, and she knew she wasn't alone.

Hope you have a better night tonight!

I had a similar experience to Elibean. Going back in every five minutes turned out to be the worst of all worlds for my DD. It just enraged and upset her over and over again.

I had to steel myself but in the end I left her for longer and by half an hour she'd gone to sleep, next night was 10 mins, next night less than 2 mins.

Understand if you don't want to brazen it out but that was my experience.

I also understand you not wanting to get into bad habits but I think Juule's option is a good alternative one. I wouldn't worry too much about habits at this stage when you clearly need to move on from this phase which is so difficult. Maybe try it for a week and see if you manage to make any progress with this sudden change in behaviours.

Elibean, I've tried everything you suggested! Only thing that works is cuddling him for 2 hours (gaaaaaaahhhhh!!!) until he finally settles in my arms.

Left him for 10 mins at 2am last night, at the end of which he was absolutely beside himself and thrashing about the cot, the poor darling. I couldn't bear it, and then took him absolutely ages and ages to calm down. So, Margo - I just wouldn't be able to leave him for half an hour like you suggested. I agree about the 5 mins thing, though - you're right, it made things much worse for him by revisiting the trauma every time I left.

Well, I'm off to check whether he's pooed. Most likely if he has I'll have to set up camp in his bedroom for the next few hours. I'll prepare myself with a walkman, a bottle of water and some blankets!

hope you had a better night.

I know there are other sleep techniques that don't involve the frequent return or the pick up/put down (the other one that enraged my daughter).

Hope someone will be along with some advice on these other techniques soon.

Try Elizabeth Pantley's No Cry Sleep Solution, worked a charm for us with clingy ds who did and does like a lot of cuddles.
But I'd also agree with juuule, a need for a cuddle is just as valid as a need for a drink, and maybe that's why he yells for so long and takes so long to get back to sleep, perhaps your trying not to get into the habit of cuddling him back to sleep is actually making the sep anxiety worse especially at night?

Only a thought, not making any judgements on your decisions at all, honest!

IN that case, Mrs TH, cuddles it is, I'm afraid

If its any consolation (I know its not, at 3am, truly I do) in a short year or two he'll be fending off cuddles half the time!

What about thinking about his diet, to see if there's anything you can tweak to encourage massive daytime poos instead of night time ones ?

Margo, thanks - sadly last night was the same! Up between 2 and 4 (I decided to cuddle him for two hours so things were much more peaceful). I finally left him when my eyelids were sticking to my eyeballs, but thankfully by then he'd had his fill of cuddles and settled off nicely.

Kit, thanks for your suggestion. I'm afraid Liz Pantley and I have parted company ever since I spent 3 months trying her technique last year. Every time he reached a new developmental milestone it would throw out all my painstaking hard work, then when I had to re-start her technique for the 3rd bloody time I very nearly burned the book. I actually wrote to her with my complaints, and her response was in effect 'Oh, well - I think it works. I can't help you. Nice hearing from you and goodbye.'
Okay, she was friendlier than that precis, but basically she couldn't help.

Partaria - hmm..I like your thinking! I think he's going to have a hefty dose of dried apricots come tomorrow! Come to think of it he's been doing more 'shaped' poos lately, as opposed to the 'spreaders'. The current poos are somewhat more compacted so perhaps that's why he's struggling to poo during the day. Strange, though as now that it's the summer he's eating more fruit than ever. Still, I think dried fruit could have a significant impact.

I second the pooing thing. When DS was that age he'd only have fruit for breakfast and lunch following several very early morning poos! (His problem was he didn't wake up and would consequently have a very sore bottom in the morning). This seemed to work well. It may be that you just have to re-adjust his poo cycle!

Well, maybe poo is the key: The song was right!

Thankfully he slept through last night and this morning he did a whopper just in time for Daddy to walk in and change him...mwa hahaharrr!

This evening it took 1h45min to settle him as the upstairs neighbours had their washing machine on when he was trying to settle...even though it stopped within half an hour that was enough to throw his calm out of the window, and I ended up doing a repeat of the 'poopy' nights, by cuddling him until he settled. Please God, not again tonight!

I didn't know before about the issues surrounding fruit/ poo management, though. Is there a book about poos that I could read?! Only kidding, but I will definitely try keeping fruit to morning time and see what happens.

Thanks so much for your support and advice.

Well, it's been a week and a half now, and it feels like things are just getting worse. He now will not fall asleep on his own at any time, except in the buggy.

I currently spend about 6 hours of every day sitting in his room with him until he falls asleep - 3 hours trying to get him to nap or to sleep in the evening, and the remaining 3 hours in the middle of the night, when I should be sleeping.

He is so much more clingy during the day, and yet I'm still cuddling him whenever he asks, as I have been for weeks.

I have so much to do and am simply not getting any of it done - unless I do it at 5 in the morning, as I did the other night - having spent 3 hours settling him to sleep I then proceeded to clean the flat.

I thought perhaps it might be teething - but giving him medicine makes absolutely no difference. The other thing it could be is a developmental change - his language is developing really rapidly at the moment. Somehow that feels unsatisfactory as an explanation for his waking up screaming for hours every night.

As I write he has been yabbering away for 30 mins instead of falling asleep, then when he realised 20 mins ago that I was no longer in the room, he started crying and screaming and has not stopped. I'm sitting here in tears as I just don't know what to do any more!

Oh, and the night poos have stopped, so even if that was the original cause it's certainly not the cause now.

What time are you putting him to bed?
Does he nap during the day?

My ds slept better at night when he gave up his daytime naps. He now has problems going to bed if its light except for every 3rd day when he's knackered from 2 late nights in a row.

Hi Jahan,

Bedtime is at 8pm, and he naps for 2 hours during the day (he's done this for about 6 months so I don't think it's a problem).

It's funny how different they all are, though - if he misses 3 hours' sleep it simply does not show - he's full of beans (unlike me!). Must be all that power milk I fed him in infancy!