We can't cope with our 17yo son's behavior

[mumoa]

We are very distressed because we can't cope with our son (17 yo, A levels student). Although his behavior isn't always the best, we've had some good times. However, in recent months, things have gotten worse. Now he says he doesn't want a relationship with us anymore, so he won't speak to us.He spends all day in his bedroom, on his phone or playing guitar.He doesn't clean his bedroom, he doesn't help around the house, sometimes he goes to the gym, but he doesn't tell us; he just grabs his things and leaves, although sometimes he sends us a text asking us to come pick him up.If we tell him to clean his room, to look up information about universities, or to study for his theoric driving test, he says we stress him out and that he hates us for it. His plan is to continue not speaking to us or doing anything, but that we continue taking him to and from school, giving him money when he goes out with his friends, and (according to him) fulfilling all our other obligations as parents. We don't know how to have a good relationship with him or how to communicate without him yelling at us and slamming doors.I should add that he only behaves this way with us; his teachers, his friends' parents, etc., have always said he's polite and kind.Thank you for reading all this. Could you please give us your opinions? What could we do?

And why do you take him to and from school OP? Do you live in a v remote place? Can’t he get a bike?

Forget the bedroom, I barely set foot in my children’s from the age of about 13 which was when they got to do their own laundry. DS was a bit messy, I used to just shut the door if I walked past and it was open.

I took the stance of my Mother who was very much your choices have an outcome and you can stew in your own juice if you mess up. She made us all very independent, can do people. There is negotiation for favours in this house always has been. People are very critical of transactional relationships on MN but I find it works well for us.

I would absolutely agree. It is not that long ago that I had two teenagers in my house. I always said that “bedroom doors are made to be closed” - in that it is ok if you want your room to be messy but just don’t expect me to go in and see it or clean it. One had a door that stayed closed the other could open as often as she wanted.

I did keep the lifts going for one of them though. She would not have minded had I refused, but I know that I would have woken up every Saturday morning not knowing where she was.

Things worked out. I now have two equally delightful 30 somethings that have made successes of their lives.

Set ground rules.Tell him you expect respect and a clean room. Stop the gym membership and giving money.
However he's likely going through something major.Ask him if hes ok, tell him youre there for him ..and be there for him if so.

Grey Rock time.
We've been there, with our eldest son when he was the same age...only his behaviour wasn't great at school either and he also stole from us.
I don't advise threatening to throw him out...if you wouldn't do it (I couldn't have) don't make empty threats.

But do withdraw the extras. Treat him like a lodger.. polite and vaguely friendly but no more than that. No lifts, no money. Meals if he's around otherwise he makes his own. Driving and Uni... his behaviour, his choice. Maybe he isn't ready for either maybe he'll pull his finger out and get on with it. That's not your problem. Stop trying to engage with him through your own fears..it doesn't help. Just be vaguely pleasant like a benignly neglectful parent.
He has a safe roof over his head and food... the rest is up to him until he decides to reengage and behave accordingly.

Oh and don't become a triangle, where one parent tries one thing and the other approaches differently. Grey rock together.

It will pass, but stop a) pressuring him and b) stop giving him lifts and money. If he wants either he gets a p/t job (yes you can do A levels and work..all mine did) and he can ride a bike or walk!

This. Grow a backbone, OP.

He’s telling you he needs space to separate from you as parents. Don’t take it personally. I get that’s really tough.

Firstly, do try for connection. You love him. And inside he still loves you. But don’t be a doormat. So a bit of matching energy and natural consequences. No advice for the moment. Let him come to you when things have improved. And they will.

When he’s home, you and his dad if he’s around go and talk to your ds this weekend. ‘Son we love you and we can see you are trying to create a different relationship with us. And we can respect that. What we can’t tolerate is the way you’re treating us right now. You’re part of a family. And in order for that family to function, there are things, that need to get done. And as you’re getting towards adulthood, that means there are things that adults do in a home. So your dad and I are going to ask you to be doing more things for yourself and the family to increase your independence. Because there are things, that it it’s important for you to learn to do, such as how to do your own washing and cooking. And it would be irresponsible of us as parents if we didn’t teach you how to do this for when you end up leaving home.’

Response - rant, fuck off.

You ‘It’s unfortunate you feel like that, because your dad and I have decided that it is time for you to eg tidy the kitchen 3 times a week, clean your bedroom fortnightly, cook once a week empty and do all your own washing. And if you don’t do that, there will be consequences. We will talk about the consequences if you don’t do these things. Let me know if you want some help with your washing or cooking, because I can be there for the next 6 weeks to help you out with it.’

Then leave him to digest. It’s going to be a work in progress. You have another discussion another day ‘if you want us to keep paying for / giving lifts / etc then…’ Keep reminding him of the obligations. In a light way so he remembers and isn’t set up for failure.

Forget the theory test and UCAS. He’s got til January next year for applications, over a year for clearing. And once you’ve had the talk, don’t do a stitch of his washing again. As for studying, it’s nearly a year to A levels. My dd is taking hers right now. She is a bit of a last minute artist and she’s bringing it together. Just.

Do it like this and he will come back to you and treat you with respect. And start to ask for your advice and opinions again. But don’t offer anything, that hasn’t been asked for. And when you do give advice, keep it light and ask him what he thinks.

It is a natural stage of development for teens to reject their parents. It's nature's way of motivating kids that are quite comfortable in the nest to want to fly off (and spread their genes in a wider gene pool in evolutionary terms). That doesn't mean it's OK for your son to be so rude but try to remember not to take it too personally.

I saw one of my son's tabs on his phone was "Can I cut off my parents" when we were looking up some music. I told him that you can cut off anyone you like but don't then expect them to find £1000 a month to give you for university. I asked him (tongue in cheek) if he could decide if he was cutting us off before university because we are quite stressed about how we will afford it so that would really take the pressure off. (He knew full well I was joking/bluffing). He was quite sheepish and said "Well I was pissed off" and I explained that we all get pissed off with each other from time to time but if we burn our relationships when we do then we will end up with little support and it's better to cool off then forgive.

If your son were mine I would be telling him that he is making the atmosphere in the house unsustainable. You won't be able to go on living like that. So after his A levels he has choices that include behave in a civil way and stay at home (get a job), go to uni (and if he wants to come home in the holidays behave in a civil way), look for a job and get a room in a shared house.

I agree with what many people have said that going to uni if he isn't motivated by study might be a bad choice. He will likely come out with 50k plus of debt snd pay 9% on his earnings over 25k for for the rest of his life.

I agree with others also about pick your battles. Let his room be a tip. Don't do washing unless he brings it down (respectfully) although I would prompt mine to bring down his school uniform. Don't book a theory test unless he says he is ready for it.
He is very lucky you will fund his driving but too immature/lacking appreciation of the value of money to realise it.

My son has decided this week he would like an iPhone. That perhaps we would like to buty him one for "doing well in his GCSE's". We wouldn't. I reminded him we are cutting back on take-aways etc to try to help him learn to drive/insure a car etc when he turns 17. I asked him if he thought having his independence with a car would make more of an impact on his life than a better phone. He had to think hard about that and was open to the phone! Cue lecture from me about the wider job opportunities he will have as a driver. They don't know their born!

Stay kind OP but firm that you do not have to live with someone who can't be civil after they turn 18/finish school so the ball is in his court.

Grey rock is only appropriate if OP has no interest in a better relationship with her son in the future. It would mean, for example, that if her son came and wanted to talk to her about something that was bothering him, she would refuse to talk to him about it.

As PPs have noted: if things are so bad that he genuinely wants no relationship with his parents, he could legally move out at 16. It doesn't even sound like he is working towards this, as you say his "plan" is that you drive him everywhere and give him money and whatever else he wants while he doesn't speak to you and is outright rude to you. This isn't having no relationship with you (which he could pursue, but makes no move to do). He wants, and in fact expects and demands, a relationship with you, but he wants it 100% on his own terms with no communication, no compromise, no basic civility (from him - I bet he'd howl if you were as rude back!!) and callous disregard for your feelings.

In short, he wants to treat you like servants and expect you to pay for it. This isn't how relationships work, not even purely transactional ones. On the surface he sounds deeply immature, but you've said it's a recent change. Has there been some trauma? Has he regressed in other ways? Why is he unbearably "stressed" by being asked to do things even a much younger child would do routinely? If you are able to access therapy for him, I'd do whatever you can to make that happen.

He wants, and in fact expects and demands, a relationship with you, but he wants it 100% on his own terms

I think he wants his parents to treat him like an adult, and not a much younger child. He either does not have the maturity to know how to go about achieving this so has adopted a very black and white approach; or has tried and been knocked back by his parents' insistence on continuing to do so. I suspect it will be a combination of both.

I'm finding it quite upsetting the number of people on this thread that are suggesting throwing him out or not even trying to heal the relationship. The OP will have had a much greater influence on the forming of the relationship with a 17 year old than the 17 year old who, literally, for most of his life just had to rely on his parents.

This. When he is 18 years old lay down some serious rules. You need to be firm and only reward him for things he achieved. For now roof over his head and food. Just the basics. I hope he is 18 soon and you are free from this nightmare.

Now he says he doesn't want a relationship with us anymore, so he won't speak to us.

Obviously we need the back story else we can’t give advice.

What is the reason he’s saying he doesn’t want a relationship with you anymore?

I’m assuming that as you’ve not volunteered this information in your OP, it must be pretty bad and cast you and your DH in a bad light.

This must be so difficult OP, I'm so sorry.

I think what's needed is a balanced approach. You and your partner need to insist on a 'house meeting' with him. Express that you're sorry if he felt suffocate by you pressuring him over uni/ driving and you'll back off and leave him to it on the proviso that:

• Firstly, he apologises and stops saying he 'hates' you both. You're his parents and you love him and want the best for him but will not be disrespected and treated cruelly in your own home.

-Unless he is kind and respectful, the money/ the lifts, the WIFI etc will stop. If he cannot be respectful and polite, the way he can to his teachers and peers then he loses the privileges he is accustomed to and will have to find a job to pay for them himself.

-There will be times that you all disagree but communication is key, therefore, perhaps you should schedule monthly meetings like these where it's an open forum to raise how you're all feeling. You each must be allowed to talk freely. E.g. no matter how difficult it is to hear, you each have a turn to say how you are feeling and nobody must interrupt whilst that is happening. Then perhaps it won't get so bad again if you are all communicating clearly with one another.

There's a fine balance to be had between holding him accountable and not pushing him away but he cannot be allowed to keep disrespecting you in this way and still take your time and money. If it was a partner doing this it would be considered abuse.

Say fine, but on your 18th birthday you are an adult, and will need to find somewhere else to live and someone else to give you money and lifts , because we have had enough of being treated like a hotel and an open wallet.

I can remember once I was trying to give my son some advice when he told me he was an adult and could make his own decisions then an hour later he asked for a left into town, I told him that as he was an adult he could get the bus. Which he did,

He has never said that to me again!

Your obligation as a parent is to house him
and feed him. The food is in the kitchen he can prep himself and wash his own clothes. He is 17 so can get a job for his spends. You need to sit him down and tell him if he wants anything more than a roof over his head and food in the cupboard then he stops this nonsense.

OMG, now I know I should have posted this sooner. You've given us so much to think about, organize, and adjust, this long weekend is perfect for this. I can't stop crying reading your responses because I feel like all is not lost.
Answering some of the questions you asked, his dad and I have a very good relations, we just had our 25th wedding anniversary, and we don't treat each other badly.
We have an older daughter, 20 yo, she doesn't live with us because she's in her second year of uni. Our relationship with her is completely different, we talk (what's app) practically every day. His relationship with his sister is good; he's spent some days of half-terms or holidays with her and they have no problems.
He's in Year 12, his A-level exams are next year. He was at a grammar school and changed schools for sixth form. His dad and I are engineers, although we would have liked him to study engineering, we've respected his decision about the GCSEs he took, his school change, and the A-levels he chose. He says he wants to go to university and we will not influence the course or university he chooses either. Although his grades aren't as good as they could be (according to his predicted grades), they aren't terrible either, and he's never had any problems at school. He has friends at his new school and keeps in touch with some kids from his old one. Despite the fact that we don't pressure him to get top grades, we think he might feel overwhelmed because his sister got 9s in her GCSEs, A's, and A* in her A levels, she worked part-time during his two years of sixth form.
We don't lecture him daily about everything he should be doing but when we mention something like an open day at a university he's interested in, he answers angry. He doesn't have a job, he's not in any clubs at school or elsewhere, he started going to the gym four months ago, and he goes with his new friends.
We used to spend a lot of time together. As you can see, English isn't my first language; we're from a Latin American country, and came when our son was 10 months old because my husband was transferred from his job to a plant in the UK. So, weekends, half-terms, holidays, were always just the four of us. He started to spend less and less time with us, which we understand as part of adolescence, but going so far as not even saying "good morning" or telling us he's going out is what's upsetting us. We've already told him we don't want him to ask for permission, it's not about if we let him or not go out, we just want to know where he's going, who he's with, or approx when he'll be back, not all of that, but something, for courtesy.
He said he didn't want a relationship with us when we suggested that we talk to resolve the situation.
From the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for your messages. I'm overwhelmed by so many responses; you helped me see where we're going wrong and redirect the route. Thank you so much.

Harsh, no decent parent would want their child be homeless at 17.

@mumoa Re your update, you sound like good parents. Could your dd try and shed some light on why he is being such a, frankly, dick. Could she discreetly talk to him, try and see where he is coming from, in a very casual way.

Although I wouldn’t be throwing him out, I do think you need to lay some boundaries out with regard to his being all take and no give. He can’t treat you like dirt and expect favours back.

The poster @Fortiesarenofun had some good suggestions when in a similar situation.

It is not unreasonable to want him to tell you he is going out. I expected the same from my sons and told them I wouldn’t just leave the house and not say anything, it’s not good manners. My sons agreed and they would soon have been texting me wondering where I was so they saw the logic in it.

This sounds incredibly tough for you

From your update, it sounds like he might have other things going on with either not feeling like he can now achieve what was predicted now he has moved school or in how he’s settling into the new sixth form

I’d maybe try not to ask him anything academic e.g grades/ uni etc as it sounds like this is triggering the angry responses

try focus on him, how is he feeling, what other interests does he have I.e how’s the gym , what he does there to train etc.

does he want to come shopping at the weekend or out for pizza

try those sorts of questions for a few weeks to rebuild the relationship and see if he opens up more

@mumoayou sounds like a lovely mum. 17 year olds can be dicks, I always find talking in the car is good especially if it involves a drive through. They can’t escape and you don’t make eye contact.