Genuine question: why don't some parents discipline their children?

[JoshandJamie]

When my sister's children where young, I distinctly remember her telling me that she didn't like to set boundaries for her children as she felt that it would encourage independence if they learnt their own lessons and learnt to set their own boundaries. As a result she'd never discipline them. As they've grown older, I think she's changed her stance a bit and given she lives abroad I can't really see the result.

However, there's a women who lives in my village who I'd really like to be friends with as I think she's fab. HOWEVER, she seems to follow the philosophy of no discipline for children. I've never asked her why she doesn't discipline them - didn't think it would go down too well. But her son (nearly 3) is a nightmare.

Today he came to our house and was repeatedly naughty. If she tried to say: Don't do that (and she would say as a casual sentence rather than a reprimand) he would growl at her. Two of the top incidents involved him pulling a chair over to our fridge which dispenses water. We were outside. When I noticed my child coming out with water on his shirt I asked what they were up to. There he was standing on the chair holding the water button down so that there was a vast puddle on the floor.

About 15 minutes after than he took a coffee mug that my son (admittedly) had thrown on the grass. I yelled at my son to stop knowing it was a matter of time before it broke in some kind of fun throwing game. The other child immediately picked it up. I asked him to put it down. He just looked at me and raised his arm. I again said firmly: put it down now. He looked at me and flung the mug into the bushes, hitting a tree and causing it to chip.

Mother said nothing. I yelled at him and made him go get it. I then said to mum: sorry for yelling at him but it's not on. She just feigned ignorance.

We've been out before where she's ordered a cup of tea and piece of cake, only to have her son crumble her cake all over the table and into her tea so that she ends up not being able to have either. And during this, she just laughs and says: Oh xx! what are boys like! Ha ha.

I genuinely just don't understand the hands off approach. Surely it just makes life a million times harder? And surely they will just get worse and worse as they get older without ever having been set any boundaries. She constantly says things to me like: Gosh you're so strict. I really don't think I am overly strict - I just don't want my house destroyed on a daily basis.

So if anyone has any insight into what the benefits of this approach are, please enlighten me because my DH has now said he doesn't want the child to play with ours as they pick up on his behaviour. I think it would be a shame not to particularly as they will all go to the same school.

I think some people are worried their children won't like them if they discipline them. I've seen that said before on Supernanny.

some parents think the sun shines out of their children's bottoms and have no understanding that their brats inflict their appalling behaviour on other people. People who don't set boundaries talk about the rights of the child but forget about thier responsibilities and their own responsibilities to bring up childrne who are as bearable as possible.

Can't stand people who are scared of their children, or talk without end, explaining without end to a small child who doesn't understand is confused and acts out.

My approach has always been that children need to be set boundaries for their sake as much as everyone else's.

Part of helping children to learn self-control is to explain reasons for "good" behaviour.

Also providing them with opportunities to play fruitfully rather than leaving them to their own devices works well for the pre-schoolers.

the hands of appraoch is great - if it works.

the point of parenting as i see it - as well as love and safety is to produce a functioning member of society -omeone that people will enjoy to be around. someone that can follow rules. As a member of society we all have rules to follow - be those at work,or even on the road -everywhere there are boundries that we as citizens follow.

apart from the rules of law, there are social rules. SOme of them such as table manners can be ignored for children upt o a certain age ( although not in my house) but i think there is a certain tolerance within society foryounger children as there should be, however these are the kinds of social rules that help a child to function at home and at wschool and to be accepted as an adult. Therefore i think it is remiss of a parent to take the approach that damaging others property is to be ignored.

this is quite different fromt he frige incident - where i believe that perhaps both parents could have been a little more vigilant and it was just kids being kids - there is an argument for not letting kids unsupervised in the kitchen

in general though, i think that good parenting requires discipline.

I don't know, it seems a bit mad to me. I don't shout at ds, or punish him really, but he does need to know when he's doing something wrong.

I think people do have different opinions on how you should teach a child to behave - some people are Supernanny advocates, some people are Alfie Kohn advocates.

I think both the instances you mentioned were actually dangerous though. You can tell your child why behaviour is wrong and remove them from the situation without being a die-hard naughty step parent. Having said that, I have never come across a parent like your friend - anybody I know would be mortified if their child behaved like that in somebody else's house - so I don't really know.

She proBarly thinks the sun shines out of his arse and that its never his fault its always boy x,y,Z who put him upto it

Wait till he goes school and parents will be complaining about him.She will soon wake up

Her DS does`nt need her to be a friend he needs her to be mum

To many of my clients (prisoners) have been brought up in families where there are the two extremes of parenting; loads from the over discipline/verging abuse and an awful lot too who have never been set boundaries and rules. The two extremes just don't work on the whole - well not IME.

Children need boundaries, and they need discipline to help them learn rigt and wrong, in order to function effectively within our society. And they also need some flexibility to encourage independence and individuality. It is a matter of balance.

maybe because they have the freedom to choose how to parent their children?

Or because different people have different ideas abou twhat acceptable and unacceptable behaviour is?

or because they are afraid their children won't like them if they discipline them?

I guess they're the ones that have to live with the consequences of their parenting day in and day out. You can choose not to assocaite with those people if it really gets to you, but trying to understand why they choose this approach isn't going to change said boy's behaviour anyway is it, so if you think he's a bad influence just limit your child's exposure to this child.

ive recently made friends with someone i think is lovely, i had her and dd who is the same age as mine over for the day yday for the first time. i put a potty in the garden as we were all out there and said "here is the potty this is where you do wee's" my dd is potty trained and dry at night. So is her dd however...

her daughter just stood there quite deliberately and urinated on my patio (the whole garden is patio) so to be polite (as it was at the top of the garden) i said nevermind but you must do wees in the potty. She then later again deliberately just peed everywhere on the patio right at the door of where they where playing in the pop up house , and her mum doesnt bat an eyelid she is then constantly touching her parts and then trying to touch my baby ds and her mother hasnt even wiped her fanjo clean! her mother then went on to say how her mother gets annoyed with her for allowing her to do this without reprimand (and crap in grass in a public place incidentally) she seems to think because she picks it up it is okay! er???

TBH i was mortified and i told her that personally if it was my dd i would be horrified, she is certainly not a dog and as such will not behave by cocking her leg wherever she seems to deem fit, she will go to the toilet.

Its not normal is it?

I went to her house the other day for the first time and the children where playing on the grass in the backgarden and her dd crapped on the floor of the toy house they were all playing in and her mum didnt do anything just picked it up 20 mins later er??? what if my child walked in it? her dd then procceded 30 mins later to start picking poo out of her bum and wiping it over her legs laughing , at 3 i dont think this is on is it? you would actually tell your child off wouldnt you?

Sorry to hijack your post but i think this girl is really nice but it mortifies me how unbelievably unhygenic she is and she doesnt bat an eyelid when her daughter throws rubbish on the floor in the street and has only told her to pick it up when she noticed me staring agog!

i know perhaps im an arse, im by no means miss perfect but i was brought up to at least behave as if i had good manners in company! rant over...but she wont be coming round my house again.

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DS3 is like that pruners. And I agree. Meeting ds3 head on just escalates into something ludicrous and ridiculous. I prefer to head it off before it happens (and it's more educational for him too I think).

Although if he's behaving really badly at a friend's house we would leave iyswim. I don't see why others should be inflicted to one of his mega strops.

Message withdrawn

I believe in a little discipline now will save a whole heap of misery for you and you child later.
The thing that makes me most angry is when someone who rarely disciplines their own spoilt brat decides to discipline mine, and pretty good at the old discipline anyway.

Twelvelegs could`nt put it better

Those that will discipline mine but can`t do their own little POPPETS

You could have put it better Sanctuary because you wouldn't have used my keyboard that likes to miss letters!!

great post Pruni

I also think that some children push and push, just to see where the final boundary lies, and they are actually asking for a sanction, if that makes any sense.

When I taught I found that if I was really really strict at the beginning, I could relax my grip quite quickly. The children knew what they could and couldn't get away with, and everyone knew where they stood.

Pruners - I do agree though, for some children this is red rag to a bull and they do need to work out their own way of behaving, rather than to be told what to do. about going home to cry.

I'm probably guilty of not disciplining my children effectively or enough, but with two, it's hard to be as on the ball as it is with one.

However, some things, i.e. bad language, I won't tolerate, and always reprimand for. Agree that it is very difficult when the other parents don't do the same though. However, I have boundaries that the DS's can't cross, and I can't allow them to get away with some things at one time, but not at another. Snatching toys, small pushes etc are sometimes reprimanded depending upon the circumstances and feelings of the other child, but sometimes I let them go to let play happen more naturally.

Both incidents that you cite would have got DS1 a telling off, no matter how full with DS2 my hands were. 2 nearly 3 is a hard age though, but I feel you do have to start laying down boundaries at this age as otherwise they will be hellish kids later on.

In fairness to the mum in question, i do think her son is a handful by nature but I just get the impression that part of the reason he's a handful is because he's never been told no.

And I think the incident with the fridge was probably just him experimenting with something that looked interesting and we should have been keeping a closer eye on him. But that's also my point, I know that I can trust my same age son not to do things like that. He is no angel. Far, far from it. He destroys things all the time and is fairly regularly disciplined for it. But there are certain boundaries he knows not to cross. This little boy doesn't seem to know what those boundaries are.

I like Pruners' post.
I know this will kick off so I shouldn't bother...
BUT
I get some criticism in real life (and I see similar on MN) about not disciplining my DC as much as other people would like.
"You're more patient than me" is the nicest way one woman put it.
But OP is about really extreme cases, as near as I can tell. I just wish people wouldn't confuse the extreme of parents who don't discipline because they're clueless/dont' give a damn, with other parents who instead just discipline more selectively & carefully (than whoever is criticising them would do) because they have to choose their battles carefully or they would lose all sanity.

oh christ yes to pruni also

there is NO point meeting ds heaed on. believe me, i have done years of it.

he gets very worked up and overexcited in social situations and esp when with his friends.

all that works is removing him and talking him down afterwards. BUT because I have 3x under 5 and no car, I CAN'T just pick him up and leave. its a fucking nightmare quite often though

that said, he is getting so bloody much better. I used to cry after playdates too.

I am not a complete numpty, but I do know my child.

Flack I agree with you. I have two very different children and they need to be handled in different ways. I'm really not a judgemental person. EVeryone has a different view on how kids should be raised. But most parents know what is and isn't acceptable behaviour generally and destroying other people's property I think is a fairly universal no no.

My original question was really about trying to understand whether people who ignore behaviour like this do it consciously because they've taken a decision (like my sister) to let children set their own boundaries, whether they just don't notice it/are lazy or because they don't want to upset their child.

I am with Pruni on this.

I used to look askance at the behaviour of other children, and the lack of discipline their parents appeared to show.

DS1 is a laid-back, biddable, sociable chap. I had no worries.

I was brought up by strict parents, and followed the same route in my parenting. All was well.

Then Mother Nature bestowed DS2 upon me.

He has an iron will the like of which I had never seen before.

If I enforced all the rules I wanted to, I would have been screaming at him from morning til night.

I had to let go of the unimportant stuff a bit, and narrow things down to the main issues.

DS2 is now 10, and a delight to have around. The fact that he can now have a bit of independence means that he doesn't have to battle with us.

But the years from 2-9 were very tough.

I was a frequent post play-date sobber too, in those days.

But DS2 has (albeit inadvertently) taught me a lot about parenting, and I look at other parents through less critical eyes nowadays.

Yes I think having 3 confuses it as well Filly and does make it harder to do the strict crossing the line stuff.

DS1 does stuff that is pretty antisocial (as expected- he's severely autistic- of course he's antisocial) such as (funnily enough) crumbling cakes. I see that as small stuff tbh. Not worth worrying about. DS2and ds3 haven't crumbled cakes, but if they did I would tell them not to, but more in a raised eyes type of way and it's not the sort of thing I'd have a too-doo about (especially as their brother gets away with it).