Genuine question: why don't some parents discipline their children?

[JoshandJamie]

When my sister's children where young, I distinctly remember her telling me that she didn't like to set boundaries for her children as she felt that it would encourage independence if they learnt their own lessons and learnt to set their own boundaries. As a result she'd never discipline them. As they've grown older, I think she's changed her stance a bit and given she lives abroad I can't really see the result.

However, there's a women who lives in my village who I'd really like to be friends with as I think she's fab. HOWEVER, she seems to follow the philosophy of no discipline for children. I've never asked her why she doesn't discipline them - didn't think it would go down too well. But her son (nearly 3) is a nightmare.

Today he came to our house and was repeatedly naughty. If she tried to say: Don't do that (and she would say as a casual sentence rather than a reprimand) he would growl at her. Two of the top incidents involved him pulling a chair over to our fridge which dispenses water. We were outside. When I noticed my child coming out with water on his shirt I asked what they were up to. There he was standing on the chair holding the water button down so that there was a vast puddle on the floor.

About 15 minutes after than he took a coffee mug that my son (admittedly) had thrown on the grass. I yelled at my son to stop knowing it was a matter of time before it broke in some kind of fun throwing game. The other child immediately picked it up. I asked him to put it down. He just looked at me and raised his arm. I again said firmly: put it down now. He looked at me and flung the mug into the bushes, hitting a tree and causing it to chip.

Mother said nothing. I yelled at him and made him go get it. I then said to mum: sorry for yelling at him but it's not on. She just feigned ignorance.

We've been out before where she's ordered a cup of tea and piece of cake, only to have her son crumble her cake all over the table and into her tea so that she ends up not being able to have either. And during this, she just laughs and says: Oh xx! what are boys like! Ha ha.

I genuinely just don't understand the hands off approach. Surely it just makes life a million times harder? And surely they will just get worse and worse as they get older without ever having been set any boundaries. She constantly says things to me like: Gosh you're so strict. I really don't think I am overly strict - I just don't want my house destroyed on a daily basis.

So if anyone has any insight into what the benefits of this approach are, please enlighten me because my DH has now said he doesn't want the child to play with ours as they pick up on his behaviour. I think it would be a shame not to particularly as they will all go to the same school.

I just don't take ds3 to play dates

I'm fairly slack, as DS is usually placid and on best behaviour when others around (though not for me!). The cake-crumbling would irritate me, but I wouldn't get that cross - aggressive behaviour towards others (particularly smaller children) would be where I would be very firm.

kids are a nightmare and they do purposely push it but i really object to coming into my home and urinating everywhere and laughing about it and it being down to me to plead with them to use the potty when the mum sits there and says quite brazenly "oh i dont care, my mums always having a go at me about it" as her daughter will frequently do it in public (and poo too) and not as a means of rebellion as she is a lovely natured girls but quite simply because its what you do when you need to go and you cant be arsed to sit on a toilet. you know she didnt even attempt to say oo sorry and pretend to chastise her child.

the same child also went through my handbag and took out my mail i was sending to a friend ripped it open and threw it on the floor, her mum didnt even say sorry. I mean it is just basic good manners isnt it, on the parents part at least?

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"There really is a gulf of understanding, if you haven't brought up a child like this."

Oh that's so true! DS2 (and ds1 before he became autistic) were so pliable and keen to please. DS3.... uh oh no- keen to control- hence we avoid head ons.....

oh yes the parents are rude, agree. that is the nub of it for me, disipline (or not) as you wish but fgs if you can't control your child bloody apologise. don't expect the world and their kids to fawn after yours.

though discipline might be even better than disipline

I think some parents think that discipline equals smacking and/or shouting, and don't seem to realise that discipline can be done in a quiet, loving but firm way. So they don't discipline appropriately because they don't know of an alternative to the shouty smacky method.

Parenting skills aren't taught nowadays - I think a lot of parents really have no idea how to manage this little cross person they have grown!

I like to think I fall into the 'getting the balance right' camp (hopefully) - I choose my battles as I don't wish to spend my whole time saying no, stop etc. But then my girls have known since the word go that certain things are non-negotiable and will not be tolerated. I really don't like spending time with parents who have let their children turn feral through lack of discipline.

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We all love our children unconditionally - whatever their behaviour, however, people outside the family (both adults and children) will decide whether they like our children based on their behaviour. Therefore it is our duty as parents to teach good manners, social niceties in order for our offspring to be liked and to form relationships outside of the family. Parents who fail to do this are failing their children IMHO.

The only thing that pisses me off is when my child is being told off for being loud - because he has to shout to make himself heard over hers.

One of my friends is seemingly deaf to the bloody racket her son makes. I only ever see her outside - I couldn't spend time with her indoors. And if she has a high tolerance for noise, great - but it seems she only has a tolerance for the noise her child makes! Mine get Shushed and Quiet Voice Now and Hush Hush - I admit I have resorted to bellowing at mine "I can't hear you, there's a lot of noise, tell me again?" because her child keeps up a high pitched, shrieky, excited, chattery whine for 45 minutes!

I have a friend like this, really like the mum but the kid is a nightmare.

Our DS's are 4 years old.

He is violent, disrespectful and quite dangerous to be around, i.e. hits/bites/punches/pinches my DS in order to get his way, quite happily rides his bike into traffic, LONDON traffic, making his mother have to chase him - actually pedalling out in front of cars!).

I had him over for a couple of playdates but refuse to have anything further to do with him. I don't care if this makes me sound like a bitch, my priority is MY child's safety and well being and if that means we avoid this kid then so be it.

It is totally a discipline issue in this case, my friend readily acknowledges that as he is her only he is allowed to do whatever he wants. Personally I will be AMAZED if this kid lives past his 5th birthday - he really does do EXTREMELY dangerous things and whilst his mother gets upset she doesn't tell him off (another incident we were walking along the river and he had climbed the barrier and was allowed to walk on the water side because he screamed blue murder and BIT HIS MOTHER when she asked him to come back over).

Am looking forward to the kids starting school in September so I can meet up with this friend without her little hellion.

There are consequences to not disciplining your child, a mild consequence is that your friend's will not have anything to do with you and a much more serious (and in this case likely) consequence is that your kid is going to be seriously injured/killed one day due to lack of any sense of boundaries.

The woman the OP describes is copping out of her parental responsibility by not teaching her child discipline. But in your own home, you are entitled to enforce whatever rules you have for your own children but they must be clear to the visiting children. With under threes, they need pretty much constant supervision. Assume that out of sight means up to mischief. Don't allow in the house without an adult if you're all in garden, no helping selves to drinks, baby gate out of bounds areas such as kitchen, consider more dangerous things might be going on such as playing with cooker knobs, risk of fire, burns etc. Remove physically any breakeable items from the child before it has a chance to throw them, or invest in non breakeable picnic ware for use in garden.

In all, minimise the opportunities to be naughty. But this doesn't excuse the visiting mother not sorting out her own child. At least, she could repeat what you say to her child, and apologise, offer to replace chipped mug etc.

Morloth, that is terrible. It is bordering on neglectful. Have you spelled out to your friend how worried you are about her child? I'd supply her with some contact numbers for some behaviour therapists and tell her that unless she does something now, you fear her child will end up dead. At very least she will be shunned by other parents who don't want her child near theirs. She and he will end up with no friends. How would she feel if she was in the car that hit her child? Someone less tolerant than you may call social services one day.

Overmydeadbody - the problem is that it isn't just the parents that have to live with the consequences of a laissez faire approach to discipline. Ultimately we all do.

Seeing as my ds is still under 1 I haven't even started to be tested yet but test us he will. I hope that I get the balance right and educate ds on what is and isn't acceptable in a form but loving manner. I agree 100% that children need boundaries - but also agree that they will push them at every opportunity.

Would be quite worrying if they didn't.

i'm sure people think i'm a bit slack. however, i choose my battles and there are some things that just don't bother me. i know MIL despairs sometimes. but i do want dd to find her own boundaries and know how to behave for herself, not just because i tell her to do so. anyone else read alfie kohn? i wouldn't have told the boy in the op not to throw the mug, to me that's just asking him to do it to spite you.

It's difficult girly, cause she DOES freak out and grab him back etc etc, he is just incapable of behaving himself and she refuses to force him.

That she loves him is not in question but her indulgence crosses a line IMO. I am indulgent with DS quite a bit but there are definately boundaries about who exactly is in charge in our relationship.

The nursery has given her information on some assistance, but as she was previously a high flying lawyer/her husband is a lawyer I just don't think she understands/likes to be told that she isn't doing a great job here.

He is being sent to quite a strict school (at his father's insistance, who IMO is definately half to blame cause he has so little to do with him) so hopefully that environment will help to sort him out a bit.

I do feel sad for him, really I do, but not to the extent I am willing to place my son in his presence ever again.

Children LIKE boundaries, that's why they're always pushing to see where the boundary lies.
TBH our DS has been a fairly good boy, and never seems to do anything maliciously. However, recently at Playgroup he's been trying to "get in" with the bigger boys (DS is 3 next week, and loves playing with the 4+ boys). But the bigger boys don't want a little hanging around, and one actually had my son by the throat this morning, before we even went into playgroup. So surprise, surprise, when I collect DS at the end of the session, he's in tears because he's been naughty and told off by playgroup staff for hitting 3 other children. Sorry, I',m in tears myself niow, can't see the keybpoard!
I'm totally for the staff to tell DS off, and I've told him off too, but feel totally shit doing it, because I know he's only doing it because that is what he sees bigger boys doing. We've never needed sticker charts or incentive schemes before, but I think the time is coming were we'll have to really reward the good behaviour we've taken for granted, just because some parents can't control the bad behaviour of their chd.
Parents who don't discipline their chd make a rod for EVERYONE'S back. With small chd, it's a case of Monkey see, Monkey do. Seriously contemplating taking DS out of playgroup until Sept and these bigger boys have gone to school. Don't want to, because DS loves it and DS2 due V soon and I need the time myself. But what can I do?

Well Pruner's and Jimjam's and Filly's sons sound like dream playdates to me. I'll sit on the fence re: 'children need boundaries', because obviously we all have different ideas about what those should be - but children also need to run around and scream and explore their environment - some more than others. This doesn't make them bad - inconvenient and embarassing yes - bad, no.

Morloth some children are a deal easier to handle than others.

What irritates me are the parents who say they are all for discipling a child then don't.. they don't follow through with what they tell their child, e.g last chance or we got home, then when the behaviour is repeated again the child is still there.

I fell out with someone years ago because it got to the point where my 4yr old was telling the mother how to parent her child and I found I was the one having to remove my child from the situation not the other way around and he was being the well behaved one. I tried to deal with the situation as best as I could considering we were in public and I had some understanding of why this child was playing up horrifically, but I must have offended the mother completely as she never contacted me again.

It's not about just needing boundaries but consistancy.

I haven't read all this, but agreed with Pruners as have a similar son (and a daughter who is much more compliant).

I think young children (under 4-5) don't really respond to being told something or told not to do something. The message doesn't stick so people who say 'telling a child off' is often a waste of time.
Equally formal punishment (naughty step etc) ineffective as the child really doesn't connect the behaviour with the punishment (and just get mad).

The only really effective approach for DS was distraction. So I generally had to supervise closely and intervene frequently on social occasions.

School age children learn to follow rules (even if they don't agree with them) and are more likely to respond to being told off or punished (if appropriate).

I'm with the OP in being baffled by some parents' complete absence of boundaries; it must make parenting so much harder apart from anything else. And the reality, regardless of your hippy liberalism (can I just confirm that I am a Guardian reader ) etc, is that life is full of boundaries.

I try very hard to not just yell "Don't do that" but to phrase it as "If you do that then XYZ will happen", so not doing it is the child's choice, but ultimately if the child continues doing something anti-social or dangerous then I have no qualms about becoming Discipline Mum.

My SIL was brought up like this. The apple of her father's eye who could do no wrong and whose every whim was indulged.

She's 35 now and an utterly unbearable adult. She has caused irreperable damage in the family when denied her own way. It is horrible to see. She has two DC and I can already see history repeating itself

Agree pruners.

My boys have both gone through stages where they are really challenging. If I was to pull them up on every imperfect behaviour I'd never be off their backs, so I pick my battles.

And one person's idea of discipline might be different to yours. They draw the lines somewhere different. And they might feel uncomfortable being under the spotlight in someone else's house. TBH when I've had badly-behaved children visiting my house I just feel releived that it isn't mine! There but for the grace of god etc.

However if my child did something obviously unacceptable I would at the very least apologise. Thankfully I can't think of an occasion where they have. For some reason they tend to save their worst for when we're at home .