Failing twin mum - help me discipline my wild 6 year olds

[SendMeStrengthAndWine]

As the title says, I have six year old twins and they are absolutely wild. I try very hard to be patient but firm with them and I follow through with consequences. But they just do not GAF!! I am clearly doing something wrong.

Example 1:
I took them swimming, and they would not get out of the pool at the end of the session. We were supposed to be going for ice cream afterwards, and I told them that unless they got out of the water there would be no ice cream. They laughed and said they did not care. They did care - they cried and screamed all the way home when they realised they really wouldn't be getting ice cream. I know the punishment here needed to be more timely, because in the moment they didn't care, but I wasn't sure what else I could do? I can't pick them both up anymore, they're six and I have a bad back! It was all very embarrassing, and in the end a lifeguard had to come and tell them off. Mortifying that I can't control my own children. What can I do, in the moment, to make them listen to me?

Example 2:
One of them was getting frustrated with a game on her tablet and punched it. I tried sympathising - "you seem really frustrated with that, let me help you". I got close to her and she punched me. Physical aggression is fairly unusual, but happens a handful of times each week. There is no tolerance for violence so the tablet was taken away - "okay I'm going to take it away now, to keep everyone safe and make sure the tablet doesn't get broken". But the next day, the behaviour will be repeated - even with a warning that the tablet will be taken away. They just do not seem to learn. It's a constant battle and it's absolutely exhausting. Every single day, multiple times. The top shelf of my wardrobe is basically a quarantine zone for things I confiscate.

Example 3:
The fighting. Oh, God, the fighting! But they will not separate. I say, one of you have some quiet time in your room while the other comes to do some reading with me. But "it's not FAIR" - they insist that they can't be apart for a minute. They have to copy each other and have everything exactly the same, at all times. This is fine when I have another adult to help me, but I often don't (eg. school holidays). I really struggle to handle the fighting.

A few more details:

My husband and I make a great team and he is very supportive. They actually behave much better for him, even though he agrees that our parenting style is virtually the same. I can't work out why this is.

They are, by all accounts, impeccably behaved at school and are doing well with their learning. The teachers have no concerns about them at all. They go to a small school and are in the same class, as there is only one.

Although I used the tablet in an example, their screen time is very regulated!

I have worked with neurodiverse children in the past and am very familiar with SEN, and I have no reason to believe that they have additional needs of any sort. I acknowledge that I could be wrong, but I would be very, very surprised if this were the case!

It's the first type of scenario that bothers me the most. I really can't handle them in public, and we are always "that family" getting dirty looks because I can't control my children. I struggle knowing how to apply consequences in public, when there is not something to immediately remove for example. If there are two adults I can usually cope, but even then, it depends on who the second adult is. It makes me not want to take them anywhere, and I really thought by now that this wouldn't be such an issue.

Sorry this is so long. As you can tell, I needed to vent... and even more, I need some advice if you've got this far!
Thank you x

Try raising your voice. They obviously don't listen.

This is a problem - I am very softly spoken!! However, my husband screamed at them the other day (which is very rare, we spoke about it, and he apologised to them). But they didn't care anyway. They laughed. His booming voice even scared ME, but they were totally unphased!! It's quite chilling really!

Consistency is your friend. You did the right thing after the pool incident. Only threaten what you can and will deliver, and carry out the reasonable ramifications that you have warned them about.
It means that you might have to leave functions early, and have them crying due to missing icecream.

Remember to be pleased when they are well behaved.
Insist on good manners, to each other and to others.

You will blink and they will be eight and polite and wanting to help out with chores.

With the pool they were eventually going to get out , they would not be able to stay all day. What were you rushing out for? Why not leave them in til they exhaust themselves?

Because it was the end of the session - everyone out. Believe me, I pick my battles... I have been known to sit for hours shivering in a park if they're happy and we've got nowhere we need to be 😂

Most swimming sessions are timed and you can’t just stay all day!

Thank you. It's just so disheartening because I genuinely feel that I am consistent. I don't make empty threats. They just don't care, when they're hyped up in the moment. And leaving functions etc. is really difficult if I'm alone, because I can't physically handle them both anymore.

I do praise them heavily when they're being pleasant, which they can be sometimes. I just wish it was a bit more often 😂

This makes no sense the swim had finished it was time to leave they caused a fuss it is usually to get a reaction, how would have leaving earlier helped?

I'd agree with @user1492757084 I have twins (aged 17). I've always had strict routines so they know what they are doing when. Strict meal times, snack times and bed times. They knew they had to behave when out because otherwise we would leave straight away.
With routines we used to go swimming on a Saturday afternoon they knew if they were good they'd get to go to the cafe and swap their books in the book swap (if not they'd go straight home). The routine of getting changed, swimming, getting out, showering, using same lockers and cubicles (or same area) meant no arguing because they knew the fine detail of what was going to happen.
You need to have routines for everything eg leaving the house or coming home. You can add extra as they grow. But the expectation that they take off shoes and coats, put them away and put their swimming things in the washing machine before they do anything else becomes habit forming over time. Same with after school set your expectations and follow through with consequences.
If they both want your attention and they are fighting tell them they can choose a book and sit either side of you while you read your book, when they calm down you can read with them. It separates them without sending one away from you.

When you want them to do something like getting out of the pool offer a prize for the first one to be ready. The prize can be anything inconsequential that you know they would like; a sticker for example, or being the one to choose the ice cream for everybody, whatever suits your situation.

Teachers know that motivation works better than consequences. Also, consider a rota/turns for things like reading with mum, so that you are slightly at a distance from the decision. "The rota says its Jack's turn first today" "And Tom's tomorrow ". Children do appreciate fairness and also like to see things written down, along with the predictability that gives.

@Porkwithapplesauce @Pearlstillsinging
Some really helpful advice there, thank you so much 😊

Well you’ve got the principles and the consequences right but I suspect you need to take it to the next level. So before you go swimming (just as an example) you say ‘ remember you have to get out of the pool when I say or there will be no ice cream, if you don’t follow the rules we won’t be able to go swimming ’ then remind them again at the end and remind them what happened last time. If they still scream/refuse to get out you don’t go swimming again. you need to remind them that you always follow through again and again. You need to used the same phrase repeatedly such as ‘if you don’t follow the rules…’ or even ‘ if you follow the rules we will be able to…’
It be worth doing some training where you give them simple instructions like ‘put your shoes on by the time I count to ten and then we can go to the park’ then be ready to not go if they don’t do it. It is less frustrating if you don’t care about the outcome!
you also have to give them consequences for every little thing. We used to call it Zero Tolerance and had to do it every time they had been to granny who did not believe in boundaries or consequences. For a few days we would jump on every single tiny thing and after a while they would remember the rules!
its not easy and you have my complete sympathy!

Op you need to be consistent they are obviously wired and feeding off each other, with the swimming you were right but I think it escalated you can be firm but not shout so say to them we are going for ice cream now are we ready to get out, don't plead with them, give them instructions not asking, then wait them out. If you are leaving somewhere give them something to do so carry a bag or help looking for your car keys anything.

It sounds bloody exhausting though i helped a friend with her twins and they were a real handful behaved just the same at 5/6 they became more reasonable at around 9 hang in there.

I find a lot of behaviour management happens outside the moment, if you see what I mean. Set really clear expectations ahead of time, actually practice what you want them to say and do, and go heavy on the praise when they do it. Use gems in a jar or something to reinforce until it gets ingrained.

Keep the momentum up too - e.g. when it's time to get out of the pool don't just tell them to get out and then hang around repeating the instruction. Say "right, out of the pool and then we'll get ice cream", and just carry on in the expectation that they are doing (or are about to do) what you've told them.

When it comes to confiscating things, remember that this is not a punishment but a logical consequence. If they can't use things appropriately (or stop using them) then they are showing you that they aren't ready for them. Make sure they understand this too. Feel free to withhold them until you feel they are genuinely ready. Then before you give them back, set those expectations - "when it's time to turn the tablet off, you can say "ok" and put it away. If you can't do that then I'll know you're not ready for a tablet and I will have to put it away again".

I have no idea if this will work, but have you tried giving them an overview of the day, and letting them have a bit of control, like giving each other signals when it is time to get out, or having a 5 minute, 3 minute then 1 minute countdown to ice cream time, so they have a sense the session is winding down and you can discuss what ice cream to have while they get dried.

I used to use tricks like counting to 3. If they didn't do something by 3, the chance was over. It worked more often than I expected it to.

But sometimes, they just are wild. They laugh when you try to exercise control. They howl and shriek when there are consequences. the main thing is to stick to those consequences. Don't change tack when they throw wobblies at not getting their own way. Then next time, they know you mean it.

That thing of not letting them play together if they fight. I wouldn't have one reading with me, one upstairs. They both had to be on their own. And the trick was to say they had to be in different rooms until they were ready to play nicely. If they were ready in 2 mins - fine - meet on the stairs and play nicely. The point is not punishment but desired outcome. So if they wail 'Not fair' you just say, 'Of course it's fair. All you have to do is agree to play nicely and then you can. Problem solved. It's up to you. But I won't have you fighting. That's my rule. If you can play nicely right now, go and do it!

Never works 100% of the time. But can help.

You are doing some things right op because they know how to behave well on school and did presumably obey the lifeguard and got out of the pool when he/she told them off
It seems that for some reason they don't perceive you as an authority figure like their teachers/lifeguard/dad. 🤔
Try to work out why that might be. I have no idea as you seem to follow through with reasonable consequences
Could it be that your voice doesn't sound firm enough or you give them too many chances before you take action? These are the only things I can think of but may not be the case. 💐

OP, you need to agree in advance - OK, today there will be a sticker for whoever gets out if the pool first. Go through it with them - “We’re going swimming and at the end of swimming we’re going to get out quickly so we can go and get an ice-cream. Whoever gets out first gets a sticker. Remember last time when you didn’t get out and we didn’t have an ice-cream? This time, we’re all going to have ice creams because you will have got out quickly.” I don’t actually think you need to raise your voice: it’s fine rather than volume that counts. - you just need to use a tone that says, “I mean this!” Whatever consequence you give them has to be something you can carry through - no point threatening not to go to Grandma’s if you actually have to go anyway! It is a constant battle and it is exhausting, but it sounds as though you’re doing a good job, and if you can carry on being consistent, you will get there. I would ensure, though, that they understand it’s simply not acceptable to lay hand on another person - physical aggression needs addressing instantly. If you’ve taken away the tablet and they’ve thumped you, then maybe they need to go out of the room for a minute - and I mean a minute - time it, but tell them why. Don’t leave them in any doubt that raising a hand to anyone is simply not acceptable behaviour. I know all this is far easier said than done, but persistence and consistency will work in the end, My twins are now in their thirties, but they certainly had their moments!

Nothing said about leave sooner or earlier? i said leave later. Leave them in pool for longer.
it was a lesson next lesson would start
If free session leave them.in later til they tired and ask to leave or the session ends for all
Why the rush to get out the pool ? If going to meet granny etc then say so.
Presumably ice cream had no fixed time?

so much sympathy. My kids are not twins and are also feral.

They are improving a lot with age.

Agree with what another poster said about consistency but for kids who can't regulate in the moment so tactics around always planning every trip in advance and giving clarity before an event is important.

Examples:

Before going swimming explaining this is the swimming slot, we're going to go swimming, at the end of the slot when the guard blows their whistle you will get out nicely or else no ice cream. So they have that in mind upfront.

Or - we're going to go out for pizza. You will sit at the table and eat nicely. If you start to shout or get up, we will leave right away. Do you understand?

Confirm understanding and get them to repeat back the boundaries like a little pep talk before going out.

Also - don't worry about getting judgement from others. Most people are not judging they are empathizing. 6 is still really little. And get the village involved. In your pool scenario (happened to me before) I would not feel bad about the life guard having to tell my kids. In fact, half the time I go straight to the life guard and ask them to tell my kids directly as they won't listen to me. Again, most people don't mind getting involved. A woman told my kid off in the street the other day for not listening to me when I told him to put down a stick he was waving around. He listened to her pretty bl**dy quickly and I thanked her and then told my kid if he'd listened to me first time he wouldn't have had the embarrassment of being chastised by a stranger. He did good listening for days after that one. It takes a village!

Finally - bin the devices. For kids who struggle with regulation and impulse control they are the equivalent of crystal meth. We went cold turkey 6 months back and honestly behaviour is so, so much better.

I think the issue is they don’t have any respect for you, they literally laugh at you.
Total reset time!- I would take everything away- including swimming sessions- parks etc and tell them that you have taken it away because they have no respect for you or their things, and when you feel they have earned it they will slowly get things back, as soon as they show disrespect you take it away again, don’t give them a length of time you are taking it away for, no “im going to take this away till tomorrow” because they know “oh well mum will give it back tomorrow so who cares”.
Once they earn their swim sessions back you then have something under your belt to persuade them out the pool- “remember the last time you didn’t listen to me? Do you want everything taken away again?” and see how fast they climb out the pool.

Such good advice

Really depends on the kid. My kids taking stuff away wouldn't help as there's nothing especially they want as they entertain each other. They can play all day just with blankets or sticks.

I’d go with motivation, sticker charts or books for good behaviour. My DD used to get a sad and grumpy face sticker for any negative behaviour and 3 in one day resulted in an appropriate consequence. Once she had 1 it never progressed to 2 as she didn’t want a consequence, She loved getting stars and happy faces for getting dressed quickly etc it made everything so much easier when the small staff wasn’t a battle.

Well OPs kids clearly enjoy their swimming sessions and trips to the park and have tablets etc so i think theh would probably miss these things if they were taken.

I just knew you were going to say they didn't respond to shouting.

My experience is if a child just doesn't pick up the cue of a parent shouting means the situation is serious, then you are going to struggle with motivation approaches like charts etc. Nor are they going to be intrinsically socially motivated. If you promise a reward, they will likely not achieve it and then they will be devastated (like the ice cream example). It's not your failure as a parent, they are just wired differently so you need to find ways around it or just white knuckle it like at the pool. Massive sympathy, it is exhausting. It's not you!