Failing twin mum - help me discipline my wild 6 year olds

[SendMeStrengthAndWine]

As the title says, I have six year old twins and they are absolutely wild. I try very hard to be patient but firm with them and I follow through with consequences. But they just do not GAF!! I am clearly doing something wrong.

Example 1:
I took them swimming, and they would not get out of the pool at the end of the session. We were supposed to be going for ice cream afterwards, and I told them that unless they got out of the water there would be no ice cream. They laughed and said they did not care. They did care - they cried and screamed all the way home when they realised they really wouldn't be getting ice cream. I know the punishment here needed to be more timely, because in the moment they didn't care, but I wasn't sure what else I could do? I can't pick them both up anymore, they're six and I have a bad back! It was all very embarrassing, and in the end a lifeguard had to come and tell them off. Mortifying that I can't control my own children. What can I do, in the moment, to make them listen to me?

Example 2:
One of them was getting frustrated with a game on her tablet and punched it. I tried sympathising - "you seem really frustrated with that, let me help you". I got close to her and she punched me. Physical aggression is fairly unusual, but happens a handful of times each week. There is no tolerance for violence so the tablet was taken away - "okay I'm going to take it away now, to keep everyone safe and make sure the tablet doesn't get broken". But the next day, the behaviour will be repeated - even with a warning that the tablet will be taken away. They just do not seem to learn. It's a constant battle and it's absolutely exhausting. Every single day, multiple times. The top shelf of my wardrobe is basically a quarantine zone for things I confiscate.

Example 3:
The fighting. Oh, God, the fighting! But they will not separate. I say, one of you have some quiet time in your room while the other comes to do some reading with me. But "it's not FAIR" - they insist that they can't be apart for a minute. They have to copy each other and have everything exactly the same, at all times. This is fine when I have another adult to help me, but I often don't (eg. school holidays). I really struggle to handle the fighting.

A few more details:

My husband and I make a great team and he is very supportive. They actually behave much better for him, even though he agrees that our parenting style is virtually the same. I can't work out why this is.

They are, by all accounts, impeccably behaved at school and are doing well with their learning. The teachers have no concerns about them at all. They go to a small school and are in the same class, as there is only one.

Although I used the tablet in an example, their screen time is very regulated!

I have worked with neurodiverse children in the past and am very familiar with SEN, and I have no reason to believe that they have additional needs of any sort. I acknowledge that I could be wrong, but I would be very, very surprised if this were the case!

It's the first type of scenario that bothers me the most. I really can't handle them in public, and we are always "that family" getting dirty looks because I can't control my children. I struggle knowing how to apply consequences in public, when there is not something to immediately remove for example. If there are two adults I can usually cope, but even then, it depends on who the second adult is. It makes me not want to take them anywhere, and I really thought by now that this wouldn't be such an issue.

Sorry this is so long. As you can tell, I needed to vent... and even more, I need some advice if you've got this far!
Thank you x

take everything away- including swimming sessions- parks etc and tell them that you have taken it away because they have no respect for you or their things,

Daft idea
Physical exetcose is good for wild kids

I suggest really open communication from them being tiny about what's going to happen, and they key, WHY. You can trust even really small kids with the some straight talking, so they know what's going on and what will happen if it doesn't.

Shouting isn't necessary, or helpful. They're just smaller humans, and being shouted at doesn't work longer term other than detrimentally even if it has an effect out of fear in the moment.

Consequences need to be direct, and related. Ice cream isn't necessarily going to link for them with refusing to get out of a swimming pool, but not being able to go back next week because they weren't able to listen to the grown ups who are there to keep them safe, will.

Try to lose the "wild" label. They're just kids, the've identified a weak point and they're running with it. Work on your confidence and communication.

Kids can get physical exercise without it needing to be a treat, trips to the park, swimming etc are treats/rewards alot of kids don’t like PE but thats physical exercise.

Do you give them any warning of things like the pool session finishing? If they’re enjoying themselves and suddenly get told they have to get out they’re more likely to kick off them if they know from when they get in they’ll have to be out when the session finishes. Then give them a 10min warning, then a 5, then right, 2min so let’s race to the side to get out.

My daughter was told off for being silly on a escalator by a woman who was almost certainly a teacher (I am one too). I was grateful!

This could have been me writing about my children. Even down to the arguing yet refusing to be in seperate rooms 🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️ I imagine if there are 2 of them the behaviour is also magnified as when one starts the other is empowered.

Im sorry, I have no suggestions. But I did find out my boys (who are like this) are AuDHD. And have high IQs. Apparently everything balanced out each other so that when they were at school or around other peoples houses they looked fine, it was at home with me that they were flipping devils. And still are tbh. The older ones now pushes the boundaries at school too and is frequently in trouble.

maybe it’s worth reading into ADHD with high IQ and seeing if any of it resonates. Sorry, zero practical advice. Reward charts and threats did not work for me :(

I know my parenting is good because my middle (neurotypical) child is an absolute angel. Very empathetic, very sensible and mature, helpful, wants to please, is kind. Do you have any other children and if so what is their behaviour like?

Have you heard of the Twins and more organisation? They run some managing behaviour drop in sessions with experts. Worth a look ar their website.

Absolutely!

Motivation makes life much pleasanter for everyone concerned than a punitive regime of 'consequences' and usually works much more effectively. Keep life relaxed whenever possible, is my motto. Although predictable routines help.

You've had some great advice already so I won't repeat.

I found giving mine choices (where both options were acceptable) helped a lot. eg we're going out now, would you like to put your shoes or your coat on first?

I also got my youngest to dress himself every day for 2 years by betting him I could get dressed faster than him 🤣 Are they competitive with each other? In the swimming scenario could you say something like first one dressed can be first to choose their ice cream?

Also think about your choice of words and tone of voice. Make sure both are giving the message that something is happening, with no element of doubt. You can be kind but fairly brisk at the same time.

One of them was getting frustrated with a game on her tablet and punched it. I tried sympathising - "you seem really frustrated with that, let me help you".

I think this is really underreacting. I'd have confiscated way before it got to that point even, as soon as I see any sign of frustration. I've banned dd from her paw patrol Switch game until she can learn to enjoy failure rather than roaring at the screen.

(Dh and I love gaming. A game is only fun with a high enough failure to success ratio. Good gamers know this and a kid is not ready for a game till they understand this)

Similarly I separate the kids at the first sign of conflict before it gets physical (i have two too, though not twins). If they don't like being separated then use that in your favour, they need to behave if they want to be trusted together

You’ve had lots of good advice here and I just wanted to send sympathy. Am not a twin mum but two of mine were close in age and would bounce off each other and were very hard in public when little. I often felt like a really shit mum and judged. They’re now young adults and calm, normal, non aggressive functioning people who get on with each other and the rest of the family. Don’t feel like you’re necessarily always doing something wrong - sometimes it’s just about survival through the tough bits with everyone in one piece.

You need to practice a cross voice. Or even lose your shit with them and give them a shock! Sounds like they dont respect you.

Whatever that is!

The punching you is absolutely not ok. My 5 yo very occasionally kicks me or hits me on the arm when she’s really angry. I will shout at her and give her a major consequence (like no iPad/tv for a week) and stick to it. I will do the whole ‘gentle parent’ talk after she’s calmed down. ‘I understand how frustrated you were, it’s ok to get angry, everyone gets angry but that doesn’t mean it’s ever ok to hit or kick someone. It makes me sad and you wouldn’t like it if someone did it to you when you’d done nothing wrong to them etc etc’. There’s not point having that conversation with them when they’re angry though, they can’t take it in. I’d maybe give harsher consequences for their behaviour and make sure you stick to them everytime. They may eventually learn that if they keep behaving badly they’re just going to keep losing out on more and more if the things they love

This must be so hard when you are doing lots of sensible things. Are they both girls? I The weather is getting better so lots of time in the garden (if you have one) using up their energy would help - climbing, space hoppers-full, pogo stick, hop scotch, boules, building a shelter with sheets and sticks, trampolining.

I'm struck that you work on the basis of confiscating for poor behaviour. You could flip to rewarding for good behaviour.

I think you need to come down very hard on the physical aggression - removing the punching child out of earshot of the other and talking to them very firmly indeed. I hope it reassures you that things are fine at school.

Typo

Thank you all so much for the excellent advice and kind words. It's reassuring to think that things will get better!

Some of the suggestions are things I've tried, but don't work... For example, I give them plenty of warning before it's time to leave a place. They say "okay mum"... But then STILL act shocked when time is up! I give them notice three times - ten minutes left, five minutes left, two minutes left. I do often offer rewards or make it into a game of who can get ready first etc, but they're not usually interested. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. When it does, the one who "loses" has a meltdown. Everything just feels impossible, it's like I can never win. I'm on eggshells all the time, I'm exhausted.

They've had various star charts and reward systems, which never seem to work. I've tried adjusting things so it's easier for them to get rewards etc, but again, they say they don't care. Nothing seems to incentivise them, they just live for the here and now! (I know, they're only six). Honestly, if I had a pound for every time they said "I don't care". The attitude is shocking, and I know I only have myself to blame for not fixing things sooner.

I will definitely come down harder on the physical aggression.

I think if you tackle the aggressive behaviour then perhaps they will calm down enough for you to get them at decent level to communicate with them., it sounds exhausting and some days you must dread doing things with them

I know you say you can’t see neurodiversity…and I won’t post any more after this about it because I obviously don’t know your twins personally and would never want to armchair diagnose on a forum.

however you are describing traits. You give them lots of warning about moving on from a fun activity…but they still melt down about it. You punish them by saying no ice cream…it has no affect and they don’t learn from the punishment. They are physically crazy in innappropriate situations. They lash out when angry and have short fuses - this show emotional dysregulation. When playing a difficult game that doesn’t go their way they punch the screen instead of simply losing interest or putting it down or seeing the difficulty as a challenge.

I would keep an eye on things and not blame yourself wholly for their behaviour. Your parenting actually sounds very balanced. It may not be you, so be kind to yourself x

I think the main thing is that YOU need to feel in control and confident. They will sense as soon as you don't. This is probably why they play up less for DH and school.

At 6 they are plenty old enough to understand a delayed consequence such as no ice cream if you don't get out of the pool. I bet next time they will get out of the pool. Well done for sticking to it.

I think you just need to expect them to listen. If they don't, it's a consequence. They will eventually get it. They also need to be separated sometimes. If you can figure out trigger times then maybe they take it in turns to be one in bedroom, one in living room from 5-6pm every other day if that's a trigger time. Or they get dressed at different times and have a set time for that. I think if kids know in advance and have a routine it stops it becoming a battle. Obviously there is some battle to create the routine but after that it's much easier.

I use Chat Gpt to help me with mine. I have three boys aged 6, 4 and 3. They definitely play me up more than my husband, but they do listen when we are out in public. If I know I’m taking them out and I want them to behave I go through the scenario that makes me concerned and it gives advice on what to do. It’s very in the moment and so you can ask it then and there as to what to do too. People have suggested some great things to help you. I just find this useful as it’s at my fingertips and remember you’re doing a good job! Parenting is hard!

Also never, ever beg them. If they sniff desperation, they will take you for a ride. You are the parent, you are in control - not them.

Chat GPT is great advice! I often use it to figure out what I'm feeling or clarify my thoughts.

Tone of voice is important. You need to learn how to assert yourself.

Do you set out expectations? We will stop at the swimming pool, you will hold my hand to walk across the car park and will get changed nicely or we will go home type thing?

And do you give them warnings or countdowns? I always told mine we needed to get out 15 minutes before we did. Then they could earn a bit longer if they swam a width, could touch the bottom etc..

I don't understand all the apologising etc. it's mixed messages. Be very firm and clear with your instructions. I feel some of the modern trend of explaining everything and discussing feelings is just noise to small children and they can't process the important parts.

Tablets and food as rewards, is never a good mix.
Contact your GP or Family Centre to see if there are any parenting classes available in your area

I’m not sure in example one that the punishment needed to be more timely, did there need to be a punishment at all? I know MN loves to crack down on kids and do bigger punishments but I’m a big fan of working in a more positive way when you can. For example Maybe don’t tell them they’re going for ice cream, and then when it comes time to get out say we’re going to get ice cream now come on! rather than getting into a power battle, or a negative (getting out the pool or no ice cream are both negative options)
you could also race them and make it a game

i don’t agree with raising your voice (obviously we all do it sometimes, but I mean as a planned tactic), you’re just trying to scare them and they either learn to obey mum because she’s scary, or they learn to ignore you unless you’re shouting, because you must not be really serious

id maybe keep a track of the aggression and see if you can find a common denominator, eg screen time, tired, hungry
sounds like you’re doing really well though, you’re outnumbered most of the time and it’s really difficult

I feel your pain OP. There is only eighteen months between my DDs and they were frankly little feral shits when they were young! I totally hear you with it being difficult in public places but making sure they feel the consequences of their actions was the right path for me. I’ve walked out of restaurants with them, I hid behind a pillar once in IKEA to let them know for a very short moment what it might feel like if I left when they refused to leave, and talking to them about their actions calmly when we are home. Letting them know if I was disappointed, angry, frustrated etc. They’re seventeen and fifteen now and both have ASD diagnosis. It took time for them to realise the effects of their behaviour but they have … and they’re genuinely good kids. I found this book to be really helpful …amzn.eu/d/0h5qZV9u