help with my strong-willed, quick to anger, daughter

[stillnoideawhatimdoing]

Can anyone recommend books/podcasts/resources for parenting a chronically inflexible, strong-willed, hot-tempered almost 5 year old?

I've heard of the explosive child but many seem to suggest it's for slightly older kids and we are in the trenches now. It's not a new situation, she's been like it for at least two years, but having tried everything I can think of to help her I'm running out of steam. If everything is going her way she's the most considerate, charming, funny, helpful, reasonable little soul, but the second something is suggested that she doesn't want/like and watch out. So many things trigger her and everything I've tried seems to make the situation worse.

It's reached a point where the best we can do is try not to antagonise her, but tip-toeing around the youngest member of the household doesn't feel like the healthiest long-term solution.

Looking for any pearls of wisdom which might help us help her through this. If I spoke or acted out of turn as a kid my parents would either hit me or lock me in my room where I would feel terrible about myself and ended up self-harming and thinking badly about myself for decades. As an adult I had therapy and learned to process my anger so it's these techniques I've been trying to share with her. The difference is I hate feeling angry and wanted to change, she seems to frickin thrive on it.

Books I've tried so far:
Calmer, happier, easier parenting
How to talk so little kids will listen
Angry parent, angry child
The book you wish your parents had read

Did anything happen to trigger her change in personality? Or was it just puberty?

What consequences are for her when she behaves like this?

Can you talk to her about her behaviour when she’s calm? Help her to come up with coping strategies?

She’s old enough to know that her behaviour is affecting the rest of the family. Does she behave like that with friends and at school - or does she save it all for you?

I’d tell her that if she acts like that then she won’t have any friends and she’ll never keep a job. Be really serious about it. Maybe it’s time to be a little firmer with her?

My Ds was quick to anger and we had a book for him about having a volcano in his tummy. It really help him to explain how he was felling and it did calm down. This was a while ago but I’m sure there are lots of books which are age appropriate for her

@BellissimoGecko
The op’s dd is not yet 5.

Lord, I’m so sorry. I read your 5yo as 15yo. Ignore my first post.

i think that a book where she can express her emotions in an age-appropriate way might help. What about Fearne Cotton’s The Mood Journal, the HappySelf journal for young kids, or The Feelings Book or The Kids’ Book of Anger?

What triggers her anger? Always something happening that she doesn’t like, or anything else? Is it worse when she’s tired or hungry?

@littlebilliie thanks I'll check it out. We have Ravi's Roar, but not sure that's really helped.

@BellissimoGecko as @ItsDarkNow says she's still quite little so not hitting puberty. I have tried talking to her when calm, this is when I bring up the ways we can calm our bodies when we feel angry, she knows all the things to say but it doesn't register once she's seen red. If I then try to remind her of the stuff we've talked about she yells louder or covers her ears. There's been no trigger as far as I can tell. Am a bit terrified of her as a teen if I'm honest, if this is the pre-schooler/ks1 years!! She definitely saves it all for us. All we hear from caregivers/school/family/friends is what an absolute delight she is. People are genuinely shocked if I ever bring up what she can be like at home.

Consequences are tricky tbh. It all sounds like tripe when you write it down. They vary depending on the situation and it's hard to think of great examples. We're not a household that gives out physical punishment and we try very hard not to yell as on the occasions I have raised my voice it makes everything so much worse. She fights fire with fire. Therapy taught me that yelling means I've lost control, which is the last thing I want in this situation. When she's in a real rage someone tends to carry her to her room and sit in there with her. She hates it, but feels like the fairest way for the rest of the family as otherwise if people try to leave the room she'll follow and scream louder. We stay with her in the room as if we tried to leave she'll follow and scream louder. If we tried to reason with her...you guessed it, she'll scream louder! She'll just roar at you every time you open your mouth. Once she's in her room and has thrown herself at the person leaning against the door a few times and raged for what feels like forever, it usually ends in the anger subsiding into sobs at which point she'll ask for a cuddle and the adult in the room will talk about how everything that just happened wasn't okay, we talk through what we could say to make amends (she hates apologising, and I see a forced apology as totally worthless so try to give her words such as 'I know I shouldn't have yelled' if she refuses to say 'I'm sorry'. Otherwise we stay in her room till she's ready to be kind. When she comes out the others in the household might explain how we also weren't happy with what just happened or sometimes everyone has just moved on. One time I said something along the lines of 'thank you for apologising, but I'm not ready to talk to you yet, I'm still upset' and the rage just started all over again. Then perhaps at dinner or the next day we might have a chat as a family about how to treat others, go over again the ways we can calm our bodies etc but honestly at this stage it feels like a waste of breath.

I have said that if she keeps acting that way that she won't have any friends, but she only does it with us so it feels like an empty threat. She's missed outings because she was behaving wildly at the time we had to leave so someone stayed home with her and the other went with the older child....but she loves to be at home so this again feels futile.

@BellissimoGecko whoops sorry I was typing that epic and missed your reply! I'm not great at succinct replies it seems. Apologies in advance!

The triggers feel mostly about things not going her way. For example today it was that I said we should get some fresh air as we didn't go out yesterday (because she didn't want to, and we've been travelling a lot these holidays so I thought her having a day in the house (which she loves to do) wouldn't hurt). She wants to be at home all day every day, hates to go out, so this is always a battle. The rest of us like fresh air and want to go out. Sometimes we divide and conquer so she can stay home, sometimes it's tough and she has to come along but she'll either be angry the whole time or occasionally she might forget that she's trying to be angry...have fun...then remember she wasn't supposed to be having fun and be doubly cross that she forgot she was being angry.

Yesterday it was that her brother wanted some quiet time in his room and asked her very politely if she'd leave. She flipped. Sat herself on his chair and gripped on so I couldn't carry her out. Unfortunately for her it was a wheely chair so.... Took her to her room but at some point I needed the loo (was the only adult at home) and her brother relented and let her in the room which is the only thing which stopped the noise. At which point I didn't really know what to do....couldn't really tell the 7 year old that by giving in he's basically shown her that yelling for 45 minutes is the key to getting her way!

On an outing after Christmas it was that she didn't get the first go on someone else's new kite, so she sat 50m away from us crying at the top of her lungs, yelled angrily at anyone who tried to approach and shouted 'STOP LOOKING AT ME' if we so much as glanced in her direction. At this point I suggested that behaving that way means no turn on the kite at all, but the child who owned it went and offered it to her and she was instantly all smiles .

One that stands out before that was that I suggested she might want to put thermals on as it was snowing. I hadn't insisted on the thermals, just suggested. She didn't fully lose it that time, but if i'd have insisted she would have. So she went out and got cold. Next time she put on the thermals.

Doesn't seem to matter if she's well rested, just eaten. At one point I kept track of the outbursts for about a week to see if I could see a pattern and was just stumped. Having read the books I mentioned above we've tried to give her autonomy in as many ways as we can but that doesn't seem to have helped. I guess it could be worse, no way to know!

But she's like the girl with the curl, when she's in a good mood she's one of the best people to be with. Like living with Jekyll and Hyde!

@BellissimoGecko thanks for the book recommendations, will check them out! At the moment we have this on her wall, but it has been scrunched up/stomped on/thrown more than once.

Sounds like my 6 year old, we are currently waiting for an assessment for pathological demand avoidance.
As long as she feels her autonomy hasn't been removed she is great.

Hi OP,

The inflexibility and rages when demands are placed on her really stands out to me. I think there may be some neurodiversity in the mix. I think she could be ASD/PDA - I would look these conditions up, look at the symptoms and see if they match your daughter. If so look for books on these conditions to help you understand what you are dealing with and how to parent. My daughter has ASD as well as ADHD/ODD - I find the best way to parent is to go very low demand. So remove as many demands in the household and therefore trigger points of conflict - that you can. Before you impose a demand on her that you know will result in a meltdown, ask yourself "Is this a hill I really want to die on?" If it's not then don't impose it. For example if asking her to eat meals at the table results in a meltdown then let her eat in front of the TV - as long as she is eating does it matter where she eats?. Also don't put her in situations where you know she can't cope or keep them as short as possible- eg playdates, big family occasions/ celebrations etc. look for the triggers and remove as many as possible. It will also save your sanity too.

When she is having a meltdown keep your conversation to an absolute minimum - say as little as possible and avoid eye contact if that escalates the situation. If making her apologise makes the situation worse then don't do it.

Parenting this way is hard and seems the wrong thing to do but it is actually the right thing to do. Yes you will feel like you are tiptoeing around her - making sure that you don't antagonise her - but it will result in a happier home life for you all. PDA, if this is what she has, means she can't actually help her behaviour. But with the right therapeutic support/therapy and with age the situation will hopefully improve.

Also look for support groups for ASD/PDA - the national autistic society is a good place to look as they have in-person support groups for parents. Facebook is also another good place to look for groups too.

Please remember to take care of yourself. Xx

Hi, I know how hard this is. It sounds like she may be neurodivergent….possibly PDA. The not wanting to go out and the emotional regulation difficulties are suggestive. Obviously i can’t diagnose and may be wrong but I would look into it and see if it rings true at all. I have a PDA daughter who is 6. I would say books like Ravi’s roar and even the poster thing you have on the wall are missing the point.

My thoughts would be that she knows she’s not supposed to behave like that. I imagine she feels guilty, ashamed and confused about why she behaves like that. In the moment of rage she needs co-regulation - which it sounds like you’re half way doing anyway. You’re a way way off her being able to regulate her own emotions.

i would highly recommend “when the naughty step makes things worse book” as a starting point.

You sound like a great mum and the mum she needs.

Yes it sounds like my dd was at that age - she has adhd and odd. Consequences are meaningless tbh

I think you are doing the right thing getting her to name her feelings and understand the warning signs. With dd she’s very good at analysing her actions after the event which is helpful and she can now remove herself from situations where it’s clearly going to escalate.

Does your dd demand to know why all the time and try and negotiate to get her own way?

I was wondering about ODD. But if it was this or PDA, wouldn’t she be the same when her teacher told her to do something, or when another adult in authority gave her an instruction?? Or can ODD/PDA be limited to parents’ instructions?

And if you parent to give in to her all the time, how can you explain this to your 7yo?!

I wonder how you feel about letting her know you are disappointed in her that she is choosing to behave like this. She is getting mollycoddled to extraordinary lengths and therefore has no impetus to change. There are times we all have to share/be patient/eat food we don’t like/whatever/Go on the walk. It is really basic stuff here, and she does (for her own sake) need to start learning that temper tantrums don’t get you jumping through hoops. Honestly, I would laugh at her forgetting to be angry then being doubly so! She would be in no doubt that she is completely alone in spoiling only her own day, and that everyone else didn’t even notice her tantrum.
I would also try to limit the negotiations with her. She can choose whether or not to wear thermals, but not whether she is going out.

@BellissimoGecko not necessarily as children mask their feelings especially if they are genuinely fearful which they can be in school where shame and shouting is often used as a consequence. Although PDA children often crack earlier and cannot sustain a mask at school. 70% of pda children are not in school.

My dd masked at school for a long time and at primary school the structure meant the demands weren’t much on her tbh. Then at home she was tired and we were safe so the mask slipped. But it has also amplified with puberty so it is good to try and get a handle on it beforehand

Secondary was where she has struggled!

I could of written this post about my youngest too expect she's 9, she's EXCATLY the same, have u thought about Austin/ADHD? I think it is used a lot these days but, Girls are great maskers. What is she like at school? My girl is well behaved at school no issues whatsoever, her teachers couldn't believe I was talking about the same child when I talk to them about it. Once she's out of school she can turn before we have even got to the car over absolutely nothing.
No advice but maybe it's something to look into x

Kate Silverstone - Instagram and books - no such thing as naughty and still no such thing as naughty....

Is she hangry??

My DS2 was exactly the same, he was absolutely explosive when he was younger. I vividly remember sobbing one holiday as every single thing we said and did sent him into an angry outburst. Like your DD he was an angel at school and they were totally shocked when I explained just how difficult our life was. I felt like I spent my whole life walking on eggshells trying not to anger him.
It all came to a head during Covid, long amounts of time at home just made our lives unbearable if I’m honest and we decided to seek a private ASD assessment (NHS lists were 4 years long then). Anyway to cut a very long story short he was diagnosed with ASD at the end of Year 6. The peadiatrician likened him to a glass of water, everyone else starts their day with an empty glass so they can cope with anything life throws at them but his glass is permanently full so any tiny little thing causes him to overflow which is the anger. He masked all day at school but when they did the school observation there was so much that they noticed (and I work in the school as well!).
He is now 15 and for the most part is so much calmer as he understands and has learnt to control it.

I appreciate it sounds like we're giving in to her a lot, but it doesn't feel that way. The fact that we're upstairs in her room whilst she rages rather than giving in and letting her have whatever it is would stop the rage, we didn't let her fly the kite (or at least she was the last kid to do it, and then only because the child of the people hosting us made the decision to take it to her), she is made to join the walk more than half of the time (where she'll shuffle along, or drag her feet, or end up being carried unless you're able to engage in some whimsy. DH managed to get her to do 2k the other day by pretending they were on a bear hunt and had to complete different challenges like skipping or being ninjas between the trees), dinner is dinner and offering substitutes is extremely rare (we try to offer things everyone enjoys, but there are times when the majority fancy something that one really doesn't like so then there's another option. For example my son dislikes pasta, I don't like beef, so on those days we have something different. Not just limited to dd). She usually eats pretty well, and if not then again a bit of silliness gets us there. For example saying I'm going to prepare a spoonful for me to have then saying 'oo I'll just have a drink and then I'll get this yummy spoonful', turn to have a drink then when I turn back lo and behold the spoon is miraculously empty.

Mostly we trying to avoid stepping into the tantrum at all. So for example some days I just can't deal with another outburst so we don't even try with the walk, like yesterday, DS and I went alone and DH stayed home with DD. However she'd prefer me to stay home, so the second we left she lost it. So in that moment do we say 'okay you're ready to go on the walk now let's catch up' which is giving into the tantrum, or 'nope, you made your choice we're staying home'? DH went with the latter, held the boundary, ended up having to lock the house as she was trying to run out. We spoke about it after and really he also wanted to be outside, and we want her to be outside, so next time we'll opt for the 'okay you're ready now let's see if we can catch up!'

Most days start with her coming into the main bedroom for a cuddle, but it always ends before she wants it to and that's the first battle. I just don't want to start the day with a fight, so I get up first, and if she says she's sad she missed the cuddle I'll say 'I didn't want another argument when I was ready to get up, but I'm looking forward to a big cuddle when you're ready for school, shall I help you get dressed?' or something like that.

Thanks for the replies on PDA and ASD, have been doing some research for the last hour. Honestly from an initial read neither sound quite right though will keep reading about ASD as it seems so varied! She'll come to meals when she's asked, she'll happily take a bath, she can be super helpful and cooperative (for example after dinner we all work together to clear the table, wipe up, vacuum etc and there's rarely any fuss there). No trouble telling us she's hungry, needs the loo, does enjoy whimsy and fantasy but not to avoid demands...so doesn't feel like PDA. She's extremely social, loves to meet new people in any/all situations, but not intense with it, has a good relationship with boys and girls alike at school both from her class and the older years, more likely to do the mothering than be mothered. But yes very imaginative and enjoys fantasy play however definitely wants to be in the directors seat, a fussy eater unless we override it with fantasy, will mimic others to fit in, well developed sense of justice for sure, very eloquent and good at communicating for her age, no sensory sensitivities we've noticed. Will keep reading!

My little guy is 5 & exactly as you describe. It’s really difficult.
DH wants to “punish” him, but he just brings more shouting…
I don’t want that sort of thing happening under my roof, at all.
Reading with interest, I just want to help DS regulate himself.

Look up strategies to support autistic children. Ideally you want to be in a situation were they’re way fewer meltdowns. For the cuddle, make sure it happens every day as she needs its, set clear expectations as to how long it will last and give the same count down to the end of it everyday. Use visual time tables.

If she does melt down all you can do it sit near by on the floor, don’t block the exit, I would remove other family members from the area rather than carrying her which will be highly stressful for her and soon will be physically inpossible. After her behaviour appears to return to her normal it will still be another hour at least before her body starts to destress.

My dd has ASD, she was referred to CAMHS.

Whilst going through the motions to get a diagnosis, she saw a psychologist regularly.
She explained that when anger sets in, rational brain retreats. Angry brain is front and centre and nothing else gets a look in.
So trying to rationalise with an angry child is pointless (and frustrating) for everyone involved.

We learnt to say nothing. Neither agree or disagree, just listen to the rant.
It seemed to be over quicker. She used to take herself off and eventually calm down.

My dd was what I would describe as quirky when younger. It was only when she went to high school that the mask dropped. In hindsight, I can now see there were signs to her neuro diversity.

You’re doing exactly the right thing by researching and keeping an open mind. What I would say is autism is hugely varied - everyone is an individual with a completely different set of strengths and difficulties.

My pda daughter is extremely social, chatty, eloquent, kind, hilarious. I didn’t notice the sensory stuff at first as she was a sensory seeker - enjoys swinging, jumping, tactile / messy play. Which was the exact opposite of my older daughter who is autistic and sensory avoidant.

What I would suggest is leaning heavily into PDA parenting approaches seeing as they are what is working - fantasy, making things fun. In the early days (before I knew she was PDA) the “how to talk to little kids book” helped me a lot as the ideas are similar.

And the Naomi Fisher “naughty step doesn’t work” book I would read.

good luck. You sound a great parent.