Desperate for advice - 11 year old DS

[Busydoingnothing1]

I’m looking for some advice on my 11 year old DS, who started secondary school in September. He is a clever boy, achieving greater depth in SATs in May this year, receives good reports at parents evenings, captain of his football team, liked by his friends etc.

For 70 - 80% of the time we have no problems with him at home, he is kind, caring and loving. However for the other 20% of the time his behaviour is a significant problem for the family (he has two older siblings at 16 and 18). Since he was around 5 he would have issues with controlling his anger and emotions, during which he would often resort to hair pulling, pinching and generally not listening. He would be told he would have a consequence whilst in the middle of tantrum but in that moment any threat of a consequence would not be bother him in the slightest. We have always followed through with consequences, such as no TV etc.

As he has got older this sort of behaviour has continued intermittently, in the last few years we have seen an improvement. The frequency of these tantrums and outbursts have reduced and the physical side of it greatly reduced.

That said, this behaviour does still surface and in the last week he has had three long lasting tantrums (2-3 hrs) during which he has little care or concern for any consequences he may receive or any damage or distress he causes.

Only last week when told “no” to something he’d asked for, he then went over to the window to start tapping and messing with the blinds in a way likely to cause damage. When asked to stop he proceeded to move on to the next thing, which is generally hitting/banging on something. Again told to stop so he made his way to the fridge to start messing with that. After being stopped from doing this be snatched a box of cereal from the cupboard and ran upstairs with it. When I asked him to bring it down, or be in more trouble, so he tipped out half the box and ran downstairs, put on his shoes and ran from the house. Everything he does seems aimed at getting a response from us.

He returned to the house after 5 mins and had to be physically taken upstairs by his dad, who has to sit outside his room to make sure he stayed there. Unless we do this he would continue to come downstairs and repeat this cycle of behaviour. Sometimes for 1 - 2 hours, constantly looking to do whatever he can that he knows you wouldn’t want him to.

As a consequence for the above we took away his phone/devices.

We had another similar incident last night whilst out for our usual evening dog walk. He asked to take a short cut. We told him that we couldn’t as the dog hadn’t had a big walk in the day. Up to that point he had been pleasant and chatty but in a heartbeat he resorted to being grumpy and stormed off in the opposite direction, towards home. We continued walking, shouted for him to catch up but he continued home.

When we got home he was again told his behaviour was unacceptable. As a consequence he was told he couldn’t watch TV and was told to go to his room. Again a flat out refusal to comply, so he had to be carried upstairs. This is literally the only way we can get him to go upstairs. We then had 2 hours of him jumping up and down on his floor to make noise, trying to get back downstairs, pushing his dad, shouting at his dad, saying he wants to be adopted.

When he is like this, we have tried talking to him, leaving him / giving him space, tell him off, mention consequences. Nothing ever bothers him enough to stop the behaviour until he either falls asleep or enough time passes for him to come out the other side.

Once he enters this mindset he will not back down, he is extremely defiant and in the moment doesn’t care about any consequences at all.

This past week has been the worst we have experienced for several months. The smallest of things can trigger him, with no rhyme or reason as to what will or won’t be the catalyst. One day something may trigger him, but the same thing could have happened the day before without problem.

We always try to speak to him the day after an outburst but he is always reluctant to do so, and would never mention it of his own accord. He struggles to see wrong in what he has done (it appears) with apologies being infrequent.

Once he does come out of it he returns back to being his usual happy self, being a model child, trying to be as close to us as possible, constantly at our side.

If we told anyone who knows him outside of the home how he can behave they would simply not believe us, as they all see him as being the perfect child.

We dont know what to do to manage these behaviour, we just feel at a loss. He can be worse after a busy week, when tired, but gets a good nights sleep. Any advice would be appreciated.

Don’t do any threats or consequences in the heat of the moment

ignore by leaving the room his fiddling with fridge or blinds

talk when he is calm
tell the school everything and ask for referral it’s normal for ASD kids to be brilliant at school and meltdown at home

your rigidity may nod towards neuro neurodivergence on your part

He was not looking for an emotional connection, he wanted more treats, has been offered to play one of his favourite games, do drawing which he likes at the minute. But as mentioned, because he has been told,with reasons, no. Yes he’s tired tonight, but I’m trying to give a snapshot of situations when these issues arise.

Well I don't know what to say then really. You seem intent on being very rígid and controlling. It all seems very cold and inflexible the minute he doesn't do what you say.
Your DH physically manhandled him up the stairs and barricaded him in his room and he got so upset he said he wanted to be adopted. He asks to watch a movie and have treats tonight instead of tomorrow and the answer is no, because he has had one treat already. Why can't you just go with the Flow for once, try a different approach, take the heat out of things?

Thank you.
I don’t think it’s rigid as such, expecting him to get clean at the end of the day, not to go round banging things, as it is banging, it’s not fiddling with things, when he hears an answer he doesn’t like or is asked to do something.

He is given choices, but like with all families not everyone is saying yes to everything. Tonight for example, he had a treat after school, so when asked if he wants to have a movie night tomorrow with some movie treats and then later he asked if he can do it tonight instead, it’s a ‘well you had something after school didn’t you, but we can go to shop and chose bits today and do the movie night tomorrow.

Again, why can't you do the movie night tonight instead of tomorrow? Is it because you can't break the one treat rule?

Is there a reason he can only have one treat - does he have self control issues? He seems very tightly controlled for his age - how much input does he have into the various rules in your house? Could he for example go and make himself a chocolate milk (or is that considered a second treat?).

But why can’t he have a treat on Fri instead of the treat on Sat. There are no health implications of having two treats on Friday instead of one on Friday and one on Saturday.

You say he is not looking for an emotional connection because he turned down doing other things with your husband but maybe after the upset he doesn't feel like playing a game or drawing (and having to make conversation) a movie is easier, you can sit with the person but the focus is on the movie. You feel close but it's not full on.
You seem to see him as problematic and to be managed and disciplined but seem incapable of understanding how he might feel and being able to change plans and try a different approach.
Has anyone apologised to him for manhandling and barricading yet?

I does come across that you can't give way even a little from the "rules" - it seems that everything he does is wrong and I don't see how you will get him to change his behaviour as long as you model the behaviour that you never change yours and that the "rules" are more important than a nice family evening.

Tonight for example, he had a treat after school, so when asked if he wants to have a movie night tomorrow with some movie treats and then later he asked if he can do it tonight instead, it’s a ‘well you had something after school didn’t you, but we can go to shop and chose bits today and do the movie night tomorrow.

Sorry? Why can’t the movie night have been tonight? Your reasoning doesn’t make sense to me. DS comes home from school has a bit of screen time (was that the ‘treat’?) and only then do you offer a movie night on Saturday….and when he says how about tonight, you go well you already had a treat today.

Did he even get a choice? Like did he know that by accepting the treat today he was forfeiting a movie night tonight? Your reason for saying no to the movie night tonight makes no sense whatsoever.

As others have pointed out, you are very rigid and inflexible.

Why ask if he wants a movie night tomorrow though?

Look it takes two to tango and there appears to be NO reflection on your part in any of this. You and your husband rigid thought processes etc which is part of it

an inability to go with the flow, to bend or to compromise. It is an unstoppable force meets and inmovable object

Yes, what was the treat? Is it even something he views as a treat? Why can't he have two treats? What would be the problem with that?

If the "treat" was more screen time you have given him the treat of a solitary activity and then refused his request for an activity that makes an emotional connection. And this is after a massive emotional upset that ended with him being physically hauled upstairs and barricaded in his room. Even if the treat wasn't screen time, why can't you do the movie night tonight? Is maintaining tge one treat rule more important than a nice evening? What is your concern with breaking the rule?

All this big build up for treats and rewards ....getting ready for movie nights etc...which are a whole day away...can't you see this might not go down well with a child you have already defined as hair trigger in his reactions ?

Again, defuse. Take the winning and losing and "big special planning " out of the situation. He keeps asking permission too, yet you never pick up on the way he is not demanding but asking still, he genuinely is trying to tell you how he feels about things. He doesn't clearly like these long drawn out plans he feels oppressed by the conditional tone you always use when you talk about" treats".

Just make everything a bit less laboured! Watch a film..not have a movie night.

We used to have football match afternoons ,/evenings, well my DH and sons did, and my husband used to prepare crisps and dips and crudités , it was quite a thing but they didn't talk about it a day in advance - the crisps etc were arranged on the day - it was just a regular event not a big "treat' or reward and certainly my son has to help chop through carrots sometimes but why discuss this so long in advance on a Friday night?? You are building up tension not anticipation.

The more low key everything is the easier family life will become. We assume children like excitement and looking forward to things but for some children it is just winding up the coiled spring of anxiety. Reduce the promises and increase the contentment

You are building up tension not anticipation

Yes and then denying a request (not a demand, like PP said, he's asking permission) about the activity because it breaks what is quite an arbitrary rule (one treat only). Then he is "off" with you and you wonder why. Then you will ask him to do something that he will be grumpy about because he feels upset and you will up the ante with a punishment for that and off we go again.

Can you imagine if you give your child a hug and then they say can I have two more hugs and you say no, you have had your Friday ration of hugging wait till Saturday then a special hug ...Every positive connection with your child should feel like a hug not something that is conditional (treats can become conditional )and rationed according to some rule book

Sorry I haven't read all of the posts, but see it has been said that he could be neuro divergent, which does sound possible and may be worth looking into.

Not sure if anyone has recommended the book "the expolosive child", there is also an audio book of it. It described a strategy to support children who get very angry and deregulated, as well as the wider family. I would definitely recommend it.

Hope something works for you all.

Agree, it sounds like he may be neurodiverse and that you can’t recognise it because you are too.

sorry I know that will be hard to hear.

I would encourage you to think about ways to give him the opportunity to have some control in his/your lives.

I would also suggest that you stop judging and get curious. Why does he feel this way? What would help? How would he like things to be? Etc.
if you can’t do this yourselves (understandable if the relationship is in a bad place), you should get a counsellor or psychologist to work 1-2-1 to explore this with your DS.

can I finally say, I’m certain you are great , loving parents and are only trying to find what is best for your child. Please don’t read this as a critique.

We’ve been there, as have many on this thread, so this comes with empathy, we’re just trying to get you to see what we can all see.

I’ve learnt with DC that building things up into an ‘event’ is the worst thing we can do as it makes her incredibly anxious, not excited. We’ve even gone as far as discussing it with school to try and keep any build up to anything low key for her and it seems to work. She’s also got a hair trigger temper (like me) and can stomp and strop for England. I have one phrase that I use on repeat when she’s stroppy and destructive “you seem to be trying to have a fight and I’d much rather have a chat, can you tell me what’s up?” Sometimes she’ll stomp off muttering that nothing is wrong but most times she sees she’s got my full attention (I literally stop, put everything down, sit down and maintain eye contact so she knows there is nothing else in my world at that point) and will unload. Often there is nothing useful I can say or do but just that focussed time seems to de-escalate the situation. Not ND as far as we know but both sides of the family have it in spades so I wouldn’t be surprised

An eleven year old boy, Friday, end of long term. You’re right, he may well want more than one treat. He might be incredibly hungry. No shade on your parenting - I’m sure you have lots of healthy options available. But you can’t underestimate how hungry he’s going to be in the next six years. And he’ll want more than one treat.

Hes also allowed to be a bit miserable sometimes.

You need to pick your battles. You’re escalating really unnecessary things.

We all have different versions of ourselves. The person we are at work, or with our friends, or family. How do you think he feels about the version of himself he is when he’s at home with his family?

I also think you've labelled him as behaving badly, missing the meaning behind his behaviour and taking every little thing as confirmation of his "bad behaviour".

Tonight he had a bad day at school and instead of kicking off he self calmed a little, then asked to do movie night.

He has had a bad day and is looking to do something positive with mum and dad to work through his emotions. I would be pretty proud of him for that and happy to switch days or even have two movie nights. Ask if he wants to split the treats or even give two lots. When he's relaxed be curious about what happened today and praise him for working through his emotions and asking for help to calm.

I haven't read all the replies but clearly you have a son who doesn't respond to consequences so why keep imposing them?

You may have found this worked with your other children, that it's what a "good" parent would do etc. But it's not working and is never going to work, and he will age out of it so then what?

I have a daughter with PDA and it would strongly suggest you look into it. It is all about anxiety when under pressure. There are strategies to deal with children with PDA and basically anything else just makes things much, much worse.

I would suggest you reduce unnecessary demands and deescalate when things start to kick off. You may feel it's giving in to bad behaviour - refrain it as you supporting him through a tough situation.

The Explosive Child book is great. Also speak to your GP.

DS11 also has these kind of meltdowns with a tendency to want to run away from home. Usually it is if he thinks he is in trouble for something. The meltdowns last for well over an hour and it is total fight or flight mode where there is no reasoning that will work. During the meltdown he will also do things like stomp round etc to try and get our attention, or verbally try to bring us into an argument. He also finds it extremely difficult to accept any wrongdoing and will blame everything on everyone else.

There are probably things you can do to try and avoid these situations arising in the first place - I definitely try to anticipate triggers with DS. However, it does tend to make you feel as though you are walking on eggshells so there has to be a limit or you just end up being very anxious. You will never be able to totally avoid the meltdowns.

DS recently was diagnosed with ASD, though in contrast to your DS he also has other traits.

I agree with giving some power.

@Busydoingnothing1 Look at it this way. As parents you’re trying to best prepare your son for adulthood.

At the moment you’re teaching that actions have consequences- this is right and proper, because they do in adult life. Sometimes this can be a bit arbitrary - very few adults outside of settings like prison will have TV privileges revoked, for example - but the principle is important. Teaching about consequences is an important part of parenting.

What I don’t think you’re yet actively teaching (and this is not a criticism at all) is the emotional regulation strategies that will help your son to avoid the actions that lead to the consequences. Consequences alone are not always enough to make children act differently, especially neurodivergent children, if they don’t have the fundamental strategies/self awareness to identify and change their behaviours.

I think that many of us raised in the 70s/80s/90s and earlier will have had consequence-heavy parenting. For some of us, this was enough and we worked out the ‘emotional’ element ourselves. For others of us, we struggled to understand our own emotions and behaviours and either got into trouble because the consequences alone weren’t enough to stop us, or feared the consequences enough to behave but struggled to understand ourselves, potentially leading to problems later on.

Lots of people are saying similar things. I think it boils down to:

1. Picking your battles
2. For now, tactically ignoring attention-seeking behaviours that are not dangerous or destructive at the moment they’re happening at least some of the time (you can unpick later when your son is calm, by ‘noticing’, e.g. ‘I noticed you were tapping the table when me and Dad were watching TV and you know we would prefer you not to’ and asking about his feelings at the time - ‘How were you feeling when you did this?’
3. As part of the above discussions (which you will probably need to have many, many times) work with your son to identify triggers and coping mechanisms. Again, ‘noticing’ can be helpful. ‘I notice that when you feel frustrated it can be difficult for you to calm down in the moment. That must feel quite difficult and I would love to have a chat with you about things that could help with that’. All the while, reinforce your love for him and make him feel part of solutions - ‘Where feels like a good safe space for you? What could you do physically and safely to let off steam?’.
4. Still giving consequences- ignoring certain things in the moment doesn’t mean no consequences later, but perhaps not always giving consequences for minor things. Instead you may sometimes want to focus solely on teaching emotional regulation, as above.
5. Seeking help - school, GP etc. The approaches I’ve mentioned above are complex and take time and skill to put in place. A diagnosis, if appropriate, may help a lot.

Good luck!