Desperate for advice - 11 year old DS

[Busydoingnothing1]

I’m looking for some advice on my 11 year old DS, who started secondary school in September. He is a clever boy, achieving greater depth in SATs in May this year, receives good reports at parents evenings, captain of his football team, liked by his friends etc.

For 70 - 80% of the time we have no problems with him at home, he is kind, caring and loving. However for the other 20% of the time his behaviour is a significant problem for the family (he has two older siblings at 16 and 18). Since he was around 5 he would have issues with controlling his anger and emotions, during which he would often resort to hair pulling, pinching and generally not listening. He would be told he would have a consequence whilst in the middle of tantrum but in that moment any threat of a consequence would not be bother him in the slightest. We have always followed through with consequences, such as no TV etc.

As he has got older this sort of behaviour has continued intermittently, in the last few years we have seen an improvement. The frequency of these tantrums and outbursts have reduced and the physical side of it greatly reduced.

That said, this behaviour does still surface and in the last week he has had three long lasting tantrums (2-3 hrs) during which he has little care or concern for any consequences he may receive or any damage or distress he causes.

Only last week when told “no” to something he’d asked for, he then went over to the window to start tapping and messing with the blinds in a way likely to cause damage. When asked to stop he proceeded to move on to the next thing, which is generally hitting/banging on something. Again told to stop so he made his way to the fridge to start messing with that. After being stopped from doing this be snatched a box of cereal from the cupboard and ran upstairs with it. When I asked him to bring it down, or be in more trouble, so he tipped out half the box and ran downstairs, put on his shoes and ran from the house. Everything he does seems aimed at getting a response from us.

He returned to the house after 5 mins and had to be physically taken upstairs by his dad, who has to sit outside his room to make sure he stayed there. Unless we do this he would continue to come downstairs and repeat this cycle of behaviour. Sometimes for 1 - 2 hours, constantly looking to do whatever he can that he knows you wouldn’t want him to.

As a consequence for the above we took away his phone/devices.

We had another similar incident last night whilst out for our usual evening dog walk. He asked to take a short cut. We told him that we couldn’t as the dog hadn’t had a big walk in the day. Up to that point he had been pleasant and chatty but in a heartbeat he resorted to being grumpy and stormed off in the opposite direction, towards home. We continued walking, shouted for him to catch up but he continued home.

When we got home he was again told his behaviour was unacceptable. As a consequence he was told he couldn’t watch TV and was told to go to his room. Again a flat out refusal to comply, so he had to be carried upstairs. This is literally the only way we can get him to go upstairs. We then had 2 hours of him jumping up and down on his floor to make noise, trying to get back downstairs, pushing his dad, shouting at his dad, saying he wants to be adopted.

When he is like this, we have tried talking to him, leaving him / giving him space, tell him off, mention consequences. Nothing ever bothers him enough to stop the behaviour until he either falls asleep or enough time passes for him to come out the other side.

Once he enters this mindset he will not back down, he is extremely defiant and in the moment doesn’t care about any consequences at all.

This past week has been the worst we have experienced for several months. The smallest of things can trigger him, with no rhyme or reason as to what will or won’t be the catalyst. One day something may trigger him, but the same thing could have happened the day before without problem.

We always try to speak to him the day after an outburst but he is always reluctant to do so, and would never mention it of his own accord. He struggles to see wrong in what he has done (it appears) with apologies being infrequent.

Once he does come out of it he returns back to being his usual happy self, being a model child, trying to be as close to us as possible, constantly at our side.

If we told anyone who knows him outside of the home how he can behave they would simply not believe us, as they all see him as being the perfect child.

We dont know what to do to manage these behaviour, we just feel at a loss. He can be worse after a busy week, when tired, but gets a good nights sleep. Any advice would be appreciated.

But you are basically saying "it's my way or the high way" or turning this into being about doing what he is told when actually these things are of no real importance. Why are these things not OK? Is this a "I am the parent and what I say goes" type thing. Because it won't work with a child like this.

I am grateful for all advice, just trying to give a clear picture that’s all.
Will definitely take the knowledge forward and try these things.
He is is very different to parent to my other two children.

You said you don't know what to do to manage this behaviour. What pretty much everyone is telling you (from experience) is that adhd and or autism is a possibility and that what works is de-escalation and calmly ignoring provocation. This doesn't mean giving in or being permissive but it means being flexible. If he doesn't want to do the full walk, why can't he take a shortcut or one of you take it with him. If he's playing with blinds to irritate you, it's not hurting anyone, just ignore it. Let him take the cereal upstairs. Who cares if he does? Why is it a problem? If it's because it's "not allowed" all you are doing by reacting is creating an escalation. If he tips it over the floor it stays there until he calms down (even if that's the next day) and then he cleans it up. Natural consequence.

When your was son was going through similar in the preteens, how would you have dealt with a situation, when they had done something you had asked them not to, and it escalated before bedtime? And nothing you say/do will make much difference at all?

I appreciate your insight, thank you

I am not going to pretend it wasn't really difficult and that it didn't sometimes end in an escalation and screaming row and general hysteria and i am not proud of it. My DS was world class at ramping it up and pushing and pushing. It was like a fog descended and he almost couldn't stop until he had kind of gone too far iyswim. I think in hindsight he just could not regulate his emotions. Once he had kind of blown up he actually calmed down really fast.
But that made it all the more important NOT to react, especially to the small stuff.

In this instance about the walk, what would have worked best with DS was to offer alternatives calmly when he asked, and if possible to acomodate him, as I would if it were a friend asking to change plans. So, give some power.

If he had stormed off, tbh I would have ignored it. If he had been rude then I would have said very calmly, "Please don't be rude." If he had started with something unimportant but annoying and designed to get a rise I would have ignored where possible.

If I felt it necessary then I would have said something like, "DS, I know you are annoyed about the walk, why don't we talk about it tomorrow? But please don't do that." if he started talking back I would say something like "I don't want to talk about this right now, let's discuss it later when everyone is calm". Always in a very calm tone. Basically like a toddler tantrum. Ignore. No fuel to the fire.

If you are getting to the stage of anyone laying hands on him, it's got way out of hand. He's 11, you really really can't do that.

I have a slightly older teen who exhibits similar traits. I feel it's a form of trying to control, or asserting himself, certainly when tired or when pressure mounts regarding something he doesn't want to do. I am seeing it subside as he gets older but it does still emerge and when it does it is hard to solve/soothe and it wrecks the whole household. I can see why people are mentioning ND or autism but I can't see that in our case although I think there may be an ADHD element. Like your son, mine is the model child outside of the house or with friends etc but can be volatile, angry and difficult at home. Have you tried talking to him about it? My son feels that we trigger him - he is not good at taking responsibility for his behaviour! I'm hanging on in there hoping the phase will pass! It is improving...
Good luck, I hope things get easier for you and him.

He's very different to your other children - I hear you. My 10 y old son is just like your 11 y old. I'm waiting to see if he has ASD.
It's always easier for someone on the outside looking in to spot the trends with some things. After reading all of your comments I have a few things I'd like to ask as some things have stuck in my mind:
Let's say for a a moment your son is neurodiverse. He might have had a particularly hard time that day playing the "part" of a 'neurotypical' all day at school and is exhausted when he comes home. Hence the mask drops when he walks in the door and he takes longer than he does on other days to decompress. He will likely show this by, (say this was the day he joined you and your DH to walk the dog) suddenly feeling overstimulated and asking if you can all take the short cut back home. Them when told no, he feels like he simply has to go back home 'now' and absolutely cannot face the longer route.
It's interesting you didn't ask him why he didn't want to continue with the long route. I'd say he was exhausted mentally and whilst he initially was up for joining you on the walk, realised it was too much for him mid walk.
Then punishing him when you returned - whilst I can see you were showing him that defiant behaviour is unacceptable - you were essentially punishing him for being overstimulated to the point where he tried asking to leave early, and then found himself unable to cope.
You see, I don't think he's neurotypical. He doesn't like going to school with a new haircut. My son made me wait three months before he finally plucked up the courage to let me take him to the hairdresser's - which had been a regular occurrence before then. When he went to school the following day, he became very anxious prior to school and had a meltdown over it. He also ended up talking one of his teachers how he didn't like people looking at him and commenting on his new hair.
My son is very black and white with rules. If he's talking you absolutely cannot talk over him. Because what he has to say has so much meaning and he has prepared what he wants to say and simply has to get say all of it. If he is interrupted then it's like he either has to start all over again or he has a meltdown as he's gotten muddled up due to the interruption.
Your son sounds like he is struggling with who he is. It sounds very much like he feels very different from his friends. And with that in mind, something relatively small that you or I might see as normal like having to take a course of tablets, to him is just another thing to add to his 'different' bucket. Not wanting to take the medication - which he obviously needs - simply because of seeming different to his peers is somethng he can control so this is most likely why he refuses it - unlike his ability to control his overstimulated mind and his emotions.

I think the key here with him is to ask him how he's feeling when he asks you something, like when he asked you if he can take the short cut back.
You might find you will be taken aback by him telling you how exhausted he feels that day and this may make you want to make an exception and actually take the shortcut because you know he's verbalising how he truly feels and his honesty and feelings deserve to be respected.

"Nothing you say or do will make much difference" this is really important I think. Children like this, once the meltdown has started, trying to actively stop it will not work, it will escalate it to further hysteria or make it go on for longer.
So, anticipating triggers can help and once it starts, doing everything possible to take the heat out of things is what works. So not reacting, ignoring, even when it's really really annoying, or whatever. As long as not dangerous or violent, treat it as a tantrum. Once things are calm you can calmly explain that it's not acceptable and talk about what to do in the future. Some of that will stick the next time. But in the moment it won't help.

Have you spoken to him about all this, in calmer moments? I feel like you might be defaulting to 'consequences' due to a lack of any other solution but a lot of things don't need any consequences at all.

I’d bet my house on your youngest child not been neurotypical. You’ve already raised two kids without these issues, and bolting is a very stereotypically neurodiverse behaviour.

He doesn’t bring any of it up, there would be a few times when in primary school if something had happened in the morning (rare) he would come home from school and apologise. This was definitely not a regular occurrence. If we bring it up or try and discuss it, he will not really engage in a conversation about it. When younger, suggestions of things he could try go give a teddy a cuddle etc if you are feeling cross would work very occasionally.

Sounds like a classic PDA profile to me.

I don't know how much of a conversation you need to have. You can just say when he is calm the next day "you got very upset very quickly, it's important to find ways to manage your anger,". We suggested punching a pillow if he felt very angry. Deep breaths etc. But stressed that it was up to him to learn to manage anger.

Thank you, we can have weeks where everything is ok, worse when tired. But I am also at the point where I can feel a big melt down building.

Could also be ADHD, there is the explosiveness and inability to self-regulate which can be really surprising if you have older kids without challenges.

I noticed the number of times you referred to him not doing what was asked of him, and vocally at that. This can also happen with ADHD presentation but if the trigger was you saying “no” or “not right now” after the age of about 9, then I’d say look at PDA.

My son is diagnosed with inattentive adhd but I don't think he has a pda profile. I think the adhd explains the explosiveness, like you say. Even if he's NT the same techniques can work.

I looked at PDA when he was younger. However as mentioned he can have periods of time, where all is well, just the odd thing which I would normally expect from a child this age dragging there heels about - For example DS go have a bath and put these clothes away please and off he goes no problem. There we have these other times where he doesn’t like what someone says to him, thinks someone has talked over him, got a bit frustrated, someone said no to something and it CAN sometimes lead to what’s mentioned on the original post.

I'm reading the responses myself with interest..

Someone mentioned PDA - demand avoidance. I heard of this fairly recently and read up on it - this is definitely what i'm seeing. However, I'm struggling to determine what constitutes very stubborn behaviour or a stubborn nature versus an actual condition. Hard when teenagers can be very stubborn..

PDA is pretty contested. I see it more as a flag for “something outside the neurotypical” than a cast iron diagnosis with rigid criteria. If you’ve been wondering since he was tiny, you’re probably not making things up.

I am the mum to a DD (ASD/ADHD) who at the age of 11 had a pretty explosive temper and the best advice I was given was not to sweat the small stuff. You are in a completely vicious circle - your over reaction to the minor things is just escalating and prolonging the behaviour making it harder for him to control the bigger stuff so you end up in this terrible spiral.

You need to get out of your mindset that every minor thing requires coercion, control and punishment. It jumped out that you used "compliance" a lot - but where is his age-appropriate freedom? Your relationship will deteriorate a lot if you and DH continue to fuel his stress and anxiety mid-meltdown. Imagine his you are having a panic attack and people are grabbing you and physically coercing you - does it make it better or worse?

DD did not like to be touched at all during meltdowns so we came to an agreement during a chat in calmer times that she could go an destress in her room -- and we left her alone for a minimum of 20-30 minutes to calm down before entering. For many people carbs such as cereal, biscuits, cake and sweets helps to calm down. DD used to them to self medicate. So this may be why he took the cereal

Many kids need some serious time to decompress after the overstimulation of school so chasing him around the house nitpicking is a about the worst thing you could do and ends up exacerbating his mood rather than calming down - he's at secondary school for heaven's sake but you are treating him like a 5 year old. Why are you determined to overreact to every teeny-tiny thing? Some of your descriptions sound extremely rigid and more like Army boot camp than a family home.

• The tapping and the blinds sound like ASD stimming and an attempt to calm himself but you constantly tell him off for it.
• if he wants to turn back on a dog walk just let him. He was not at school and it is hardly a "fun activity" if it was coerced. Why you had to go nuclear with a plethora of punishments - I have absolutely no idea and don't really understand what you aimed to achieve.
• pushing a chair - meh - hardly the crime of the century
• running upstairs with a box of cereal - actually quite funny - he didn't tip it out until you chased and scolded him - why couldn't you let it go?
• bedding on the floor - no biggie - 2 minutes to pick it up

I think that your idea of "consequences" are having totally the opposite effect because they are so draconian. I suspect that they have no effect now because you just pile on the punishments out of all proportion to the offence so he feels every minor infraction is a life sentence.

• dog walk - OK for him to go home - as a parent I would ask if he is OK
• but you and DH started at punishment 1 - no TV - why? What had he done wrong?
• Punishment 2 - no TV + sent to room - why the escalation?
• Punishment 3 - no TV + sent to room + manhandled by DH - why was this a good idea?
• Punishment 4 no TV + sent to room + manhandled by DH + imprisoned in room - this was a real WTF moment for me that your DS wanting a shorter walk was subjected to 4 draconian punishments. Why did this seem a good idea would anyone calm down from so many punishments?

As I said earlier with DD at that age she was allowed to take herself off to calm in her room and be left alone - it was usually effective. So stop nit picking small stuff and sit on your hands. Try to loosen the control a little - he may be struggling with you treating him as a toddler compared to his classmates. IME the puberty years will be hard so you need to have a plan.

Its interesting that he had problems with this at around 5, which then improved and it is now worse again at 11.
Boys get testosterone surges at about these ages which can be really challenging for them. Both my DS were real handfuls at around 11/12 in years 7 and 8. It improved with age.
I am not saying all the advice about ND stuff isn't the case, but its also worth bearing this in mind. Raising Boys talks about this very issue.
At about 11 'consequences' stop really working. Picking battles is important. Pre teens need to develop some automony. They can get horribly frustrated by endless 'no, because I said so' type decision making.
Add in new school, trying to fit in, harder school work, being the baby of the family, likely tiredness and hunger (both my pre teen DS were constantly ravenous) and it can all overwhelm their system, which is already trying to assimilate a huge testosterone surge.

This is interesting, thank you for the thoughts. He is a bed wetter, never been fully dry at night yet, which he is on medication for and is aware now that it’s different compared to most children his age, so your post has made think, perhaps he is also aware these meltdowns are the same.

Food for thought. Thank you
He didn’t take the cereal due to being hungry or needing carbs, he took the cereal as he knew he shouldn’t, no other time does he take food upstairs. Only once or twice has he gone off to his room to decompress, he will come where we are or in the next room doing something. He would not listen to that suggestion.

I have one adult DC with ASD and one with ADHD. I think, however fashionable, it's dangerous to try to diagnose over the internet.
Get your DS to the GP, he could be physically ill, diabetes can cause mood and behaviour disturbances. I think you need proper advice and probably family therapy too, because your DH absolutely should not be carrying him anywhere.
How traumatic for him.