Desperate for advice - 11 year old DS

[Busydoingnothing1]

I’m looking for some advice on my 11 year old DS, who started secondary school in September. He is a clever boy, achieving greater depth in SATs in May this year, receives good reports at parents evenings, captain of his football team, liked by his friends etc.

For 70 - 80% of the time we have no problems with him at home, he is kind, caring and loving. However for the other 20% of the time his behaviour is a significant problem for the family (he has two older siblings at 16 and 18). Since he was around 5 he would have issues with controlling his anger and emotions, during which he would often resort to hair pulling, pinching and generally not listening. He would be told he would have a consequence whilst in the middle of tantrum but in that moment any threat of a consequence would not be bother him in the slightest. We have always followed through with consequences, such as no TV etc.

As he has got older this sort of behaviour has continued intermittently, in the last few years we have seen an improvement. The frequency of these tantrums and outbursts have reduced and the physical side of it greatly reduced.

That said, this behaviour does still surface and in the last week he has had three long lasting tantrums (2-3 hrs) during which he has little care or concern for any consequences he may receive or any damage or distress he causes.

Only last week when told “no” to something he’d asked for, he then went over to the window to start tapping and messing with the blinds in a way likely to cause damage. When asked to stop he proceeded to move on to the next thing, which is generally hitting/banging on something. Again told to stop so he made his way to the fridge to start messing with that. After being stopped from doing this be snatched a box of cereal from the cupboard and ran upstairs with it. When I asked him to bring it down, or be in more trouble, so he tipped out half the box and ran downstairs, put on his shoes and ran from the house. Everything he does seems aimed at getting a response from us.

He returned to the house after 5 mins and had to be physically taken upstairs by his dad, who has to sit outside his room to make sure he stayed there. Unless we do this he would continue to come downstairs and repeat this cycle of behaviour. Sometimes for 1 - 2 hours, constantly looking to do whatever he can that he knows you wouldn’t want him to.

As a consequence for the above we took away his phone/devices.

We had another similar incident last night whilst out for our usual evening dog walk. He asked to take a short cut. We told him that we couldn’t as the dog hadn’t had a big walk in the day. Up to that point he had been pleasant and chatty but in a heartbeat he resorted to being grumpy and stormed off in the opposite direction, towards home. We continued walking, shouted for him to catch up but he continued home.

When we got home he was again told his behaviour was unacceptable. As a consequence he was told he couldn’t watch TV and was told to go to his room. Again a flat out refusal to comply, so he had to be carried upstairs. This is literally the only way we can get him to go upstairs. We then had 2 hours of him jumping up and down on his floor to make noise, trying to get back downstairs, pushing his dad, shouting at his dad, saying he wants to be adopted.

When he is like this, we have tried talking to him, leaving him / giving him space, tell him off, mention consequences. Nothing ever bothers him enough to stop the behaviour until he either falls asleep or enough time passes for him to come out the other side.

Once he enters this mindset he will not back down, he is extremely defiant and in the moment doesn’t care about any consequences at all.

This past week has been the worst we have experienced for several months. The smallest of things can trigger him, with no rhyme or reason as to what will or won’t be the catalyst. One day something may trigger him, but the same thing could have happened the day before without problem.

We always try to speak to him the day after an outburst but he is always reluctant to do so, and would never mention it of his own accord. He struggles to see wrong in what he has done (it appears) with apologies being infrequent.

Once he does come out of it he returns back to being his usual happy self, being a model child, trying to be as close to us as possible, constantly at our side.

If we told anyone who knows him outside of the home how he can behave they would simply not believe us, as they all see him as being the perfect child.

We dont know what to do to manage these behaviour, we just feel at a loss. He can be worse after a busy week, when tired, but gets a good nights sleep. Any advice would be appreciated.

I have read up on this and don’t see any other traits, I am of course not saying this is something to consider. Would you elaborate?

Meltdowns, stimming, holding it in school and not being able to at home, eloping and being overly compliant outside the home. These are just from your first post.

Yeh, there are tonnes of traits there. Have a more in-depth read on the internet.
Also, you keep asking people who say their child is ASD or has ADHD whether they experience the same outbursts from their child. Yes, just assume everyone who is replying says yes, they know what you're going through, this is why they're replying. Yes.

He refuses to have a bath? Just say ‘ not a problem , you don’t have to have a bath. Have a shower if you fancy it or just miss it tonight but you may smell tomorrow’

refuses to brush his teeth? Don’t worry, just brush the teeth you want to keep

wants to turn back on a walk? OK, I’ll walk back with you and dad can continue on with the dog.’

he’s building up to a meltdown by messing with the blinds or whatever? Distract him. ‘Want a croissant? Want some cake? Fancy a milkshake? Oh come and look at this! Shall we do xyz? ‘ Anything to try and stop it in its tracks. Just attempt to de-escalate. So no ‘ if you don’t stop that I will take your iPad’ or whatever. It doesn’t work.

your problem is you’re punishing him and not attempting to de-escalate.

its all about just doing some kind, relaxed and more agreeable parenting for a while - even if you’re doing it through gritted teeth

Have you spoken with your husband @Busydoingnothing1 ? Does he know not to carry his 11 year old up to his room as punitive behaviour management? Does he agree it oversteps basic human boundaries? Sounds like a complex family situation, a pp had it right family therapy and support perhaps for ND for you lovely boy.

But you aren't. You are using punishment and consequences which escalates it further. People here are saying that you have to not react or react breezily and calmly rather than escalate with punishment (even if it's said calmly).
And yes, we have all seen this behaviour, hence why we are replying.

What you've described here seems fairly textbook. Have you ever had him assessed? Id consider that you aren't seeing the traits because you and maybe your DH are also ND with causing these escalations of minor matters. It is in no way normal to be manhandling an 11 year old and barricaded him in his room because he started by tapping a window and progressed to carrying a box of cereal upstairs.

And all because he wanted to take a shortcut on a dog walk. OP still hasn't explained why this was so unacceptable that it required punishment.

ignoring us and walking off in the middle of the street, is not the same as having a difference of opinion and parting ways. And as mentioned he was not tapping a window and carrying off a box of cereal. He was banging on the blinds and took the cereal, then tipped half the box out when asked to bring it back down. While we are in agreement that we need to make some changes going forward, as I’m sure you will know from going through similar with your son, we can not let everything go.

I do understand that but the examples you are giving give the distinct impression that you don't let anything go, ever. You seem to make everything something that needs to be punished or have a consequence. And with a child like this all you do is escalate things further and further.
I have a daughter who is completely different and all the "usual" parenting ideas work with her. With my son I had to parent him totally differently. So in the case of all the things you have mentioned so far, I would have ignored them. That would not have been the same thing as "letting everything go". Can you see that?

I think you keep reverting to the same 'blind spot"...what to do if child starts banging blinds or carrying off cereal.? This is not the point we are making.

The point is to avoid getting him in the state that makes him bang the blinds and carry off the cereal. It started with the telling off. So, perhaps think about the efficacy of that "telling off" when you came in. The TV ban was part of the telling off.

So that is when things started to really unravel. He has run off ...next time it could be rudeness or getting angry over something or thumping something . What is your crucial reaction to this first bad thing?

Not telling off, not punishment but redirection recognising flashpoints etc. Then you won't get to the second and third and fourth "bad thing"- the tantrums which last two hours. And you still win because he is learning something when you redirect or avoid unnecessary triggers

No you can’t let everything go but when he has already reached the point of dysregulation. You’re parenting is massively controlling and adding to the issue. You need to recognise children have far few choices in life than adults and you need to stop backing him into a corner. The physical stuff MUST stop.

OP my son was like this started when he was 9 and was at the same time when he had just moved house. His dad then died and this behaviour continued. I woukd say he would go into the zone and there was no getting him out of that it was like he could literally just blank out everything around him and just be destructive. Those saying you can’t believe he was man handled prob haven’t experienced the destruction that a boy of this age can cause physically but also mentally in any other siblings in the house.

my advice : when he’s in that zone- leave him to it as anything you say will not help. Only say something if he is being a danger/ doing something to someone. The next day you do consequences for actions and sit down and have talks about his behaviour. You have to be 100 per cent consistent with this approach. I would ask him if wanted to be treated like a child or a young adult. Child would be he would get something taken away. Adult we would chat and he’d have to show he understood his actions were wrong, apologise to any siblings. That was it, unless he repeated the action again in which case he got a punishment. When he’s behaving good you shower him in love, kindness and praise. When he’s misbehaving the key is to not show him it’s bothering you.

Don’t automatically read these comments and thinks he’s SEN. Mine isn’t, he just couldn’t cope with changes and couldn’t control his emotions. He’s now 16 and I’d say he’s behaved like this once in the last year and to a lesser extent. He is actually an absolute delight now and he denies ever behaving like that in a jokey way with a wink in his eye. It was a horrendous time but sometimes you just have to ride the wave.

The child wasn’t being destructive when he was been man handled. He wasn’t been man handled to keep himself, others or property safe. He was been man handled because he wouldn’t do what the Dad wanted him to do.

It's really hard when they're doing these things and it's winding you up and you feel needled and that you should "do something" (hence why I always handled it really really badly if he had one of these episodes in public because the weight of disapproval from others who didn't get it made me feel like ignoring or distracting was feeble). But he's not actually doing anything terrible in these moments, if he is ND it may even be a form of trying to release tension and calm himself.
Either way, reacting to each minor infraction inflames everything. You cannot be manhandling an 11 year old and barricading him in his room, just can't. So you have to have ways to de escalate way before that. That's not giving in. The more you can de escalate generally and give him more say and choices generally the less these outbursts will happen.

Again, I think part of the problem here is that you can't see how rígid and controlling you sound. He got in a huff and stormed off. Was he a bit rude? Yeah, maybe. When you get home (by which time maybe he has calmed down and you could have found out why he reacted like that, or ignored it and stopped the whole thing in its tracks) but your punishment is no TV and go to his room. That's way over the top right away. Sometimes people are in a bad mood and behave rudely. The solution is not to instantly remove a privilege and banish them. You are escalating every tiny thing and wondering why you get a negative response. Not sweating the small stuff or giving a preteen known to be a bit explosive some space to react and regulate isn't "giving in to everything".

While we are in agreement that we need to make some changes going forward

So your husband and you have agreed that he is not to carry or manhandle his son ever again? Is he feeling a bit ashamed about his behaviour? A grown man using physical force to overpower his 11 year old son. Has he reflected on it? Would he and you feel comfortable sharing this with teachers at school?

OOI, does your h have communication problems? Is he unable to use his words to get his point across to your son and that's why he is using physical force?

Could he (and you) be neurodiverse?

Has he been unwell recently? Has he also got some OCD type behaviours or intrusive thoughts? Separation anxiety. Although sounds mild, incidents could be PANS/PANDAS flares but obviously could be far off the mark. It sounds like his nervous system is reactive sometimes - any trauma? ADHD/Autistic traits. I know that year 6 can be a traumatic time for neurodivergent kids that mask.

Seeing as she says it's been going on for years I doubt it's PANDAS.

Thank you. That’s what it’s feeling like at this time.

Hes come home from school this evening and i
can see he’s not in the best of moods. When the screen time finished on his phone, he wasn’t happy, so walked off with some banging to the sofa, left him to it and he stopped and went and found something else to do. But has been miserable since, not talking much etc. DH had said to him earlier they could go to the shop tomorrow, get some treats for a movie nights, DS has just asked if they can go get treats now and watch movie tonight, DH said well you’ve had a Friday treat (had one after school), said well we can go to shop and chose now if you like, but we’ll do movie night tomorrow like we said. So he’s off with us now, which is when the defiance of other things kicks in, won’t want to go and get ready for bed later etc, being very short with us. However if he had more screen time or was told yes to the movie night, he would have now been happy as Larry. It’s when he is told no or can’t have something.

Is there any reason he couldn’t watch a film witj you tonight instead of tomorrow or a film tonight and tomorrow? It sounds like he was looking to connect with his Dad.

He wanted to watch the film and have some movie treats, he didn’t want to watch a film without them.

Did you offer the film without the treats? Or offer to move it from Sat or Fri night?

Again, rígid thinking. He's trying to make an emotional connection, watching a movie together. But because he has had one treat already, computer says no. You are rigidly sticking to rules about treats when your child is looking for some emotional connection after being manhandled and barricaded in his room the night before. Surely the emotional connection is more important.

So why couldn't he do that tonight? He was obviously looking for a connection. You say now he is in a bad mood again, well duh. I would be pretty upset too.