7 year old tantrums are unbearable

[Parentinneed33]

I need some support - I am at my wits end.

My 7-year-old DD is funny, confident, friendly and well behaved. She has no problems at school and her daytime behaviour is excellent. However, bedtime has become increasingly problematic over the past few months and has escalated to a level that is now unmanageable and sometimes frightening.

Last night she had one of her worst episodes. When bedtime was mentioned she became extremely distressed and had a tantrum that lasted around two hours. During the episode she:

• Destroyed her bedroom (drew on her door, smashed a lamp, scattered toys),
• Threw items and physically hurt both her father and me.
• Screamed abuse and name-calling at us repeatedly.

At the end of the episode I burst out crying (couldn’t help it) as did she, before finally calming down. We were extremely shaken.

Over the years, we have tried every single routine/strategy we can think of: a consistent bedtime routine, no screens, calm and predictable approach, sitting with her until she falls asleep, setting clear boundaries and consequences. None of these have prevented the meltdowns. We have also tried asking her to go to her room and, in desperation, briefly closing the door in the past - which made things much worse. She can scream and rage for hours; we cannot safely lock her in a room and removing privileges seems to have very limited effect because she has very few things left to remove. She doesn’t really watch TV outwith weekends, she doesn’t have a phone/Ipad. Today I am cancelling a party she was due to go to tonight because of her behaviour, she will be upset by this but honestly I’m not sure it will leave a lasting impression?

We are utterly exhausted and finding it increasingly difficult to cope. I’ve been awake all night, completely wired from the stress of it all. We have a meeting arranged with a child therapist next week, which I’m grateful for. I realise that neurodiversity will likely be mentioned, and while I’m not dismissing that possibility, I find it hard to understand because these behaviours only ever appear at bedtime, the rest of the time she’s a happy, well-regulated child.

What I would really like to know is if anyone else’s child has been like this at 7 and has grown out of it? I’m so worried for her teenage years if she’s like this now!!

Also if she is at clubs most nights she is actually not getting g a huge amount of time at home / with you and so having this episode at bedtime gets her a massive amount of attention from you. I do think 4 clubs a week is too much for a variety of reasons.

Agree with all @SleafordSods has said.

My initial thoughts on reading the OP are:

Very likely ND and girls can expertly mask it all day long especially once they start school. It's no surprise that by bedtime it unravels.

She's overwhelmed. Too many activities on top of school and she's overtired. The time of bedtime isn't necessarily the issue, it might be that she isn't getting enough downtime to decompress from school and clubs.

Clubs and sports are great but how much time outdoors is she getting? Get out in nature as much as possible.

PDA could also be a factor but perhaps less likely if she's compliant usually.

She sounds very much like my son at that age. Looking back on it I see that anxiety was such a powerful factor that I should have focused all of my attempted solutions around creating a calmly loving and solid reassuring presence. I still don't really know how I would have done that effectively though. All I do know is that no system of 'consequences' would have helped.

In answer to your question about how it progresses in the teenage years, his early teens were pretty awful. The same kind of 'tantrums'/meltdowns but with more strength and size. I got so worn down by it that I started to see him as cold, tyrannical and unloving. (I know that is something I should never have felt, but he so often left me feeling physically cornered.)

But later into his teens, and in early adulthood, he was much, much more quiet and compassionate. I could see, retrospectively, that all of the loving concern for his family that you would hope would mitigate the challenging behaviour was present throughout, just stymied by all the other stuff that was going on for him.

All I can say is, keep hold of that knowledge of the loving daughter inside. And keep hold of the fact that whatever difficulty she has, it is likely something that neither you nor she is responsible for. Don't blame yourself for anything, take enough care for yourself to enable you to feel as calm as possible.

As far as ND/NT is concerned, yes, it is probably worth exploring a diagnosis. But don't hang on to that too much. It is just a way of framing the difficulties that she has. You are still left with the tasks of helping her to cope with her difficulties, which will be similar regardless of which side of the diagnostic threshold the asssessors judge her to be.

I think a club every night is too much. My 7 year old would be overwhelmed.

can you give us a run down of what a typica day looks like for her, with rough times?

Also don't see it as "giving in" if you let her sleep in with you even is only for part of the night. Some children just need that comfort of closeness at night to help them regulate. Sometimes even putting them to bed in your bed rather than theirs works and you can transfer them later.

I probably wouldn't cancel the party either. Her behaviour doesn't sound in her control and punishment just shames her. Need to focus on prevention. I think start with cutting back on clubs and some more quiet time at home.

Also have a 7 year old. Also been through various cycles of bedtime hell. Including refusing to go to sleep past 2am some nights. We’ve had 6 months of perfect bedtimes now. Tried everything. What made the difference is a Tonie and a boring story on every night. Has to be the same Tonie (anything different and she actively listens and doesn’t fall asleep.) Volume limited. And I think because it’s been listened to 26624 times it drones her off to sleep.

I don’t see it as giving in either. Something is making her behave in this way and maybe she can’t articulate what that something is.

By giving her the reassurance of your physical presence she may calm enough to be able to deal with bedtimes without a fuss.

Like I said, it doesn’t even have to be in your bed, it could be in a bed in your room or a mattress on your floor.

That is a good idea.

What to Do When You Dread Your Bed: A Kid's Guide to Overcoming Problems with Sleep: 5 (What-to-Do Guides for Kids) : Huebner PhD, Dawn, Matthews, Bonnie: Amazon.co.uk: Books https://share.google/Wgls0fe5OhCbAD05d

Try working through this as well.

It might bring a few things to light.

I sometimes babysit for a B6 who reacts in a similar way to scenarios he’s not happy with. His parents also have to stay by his bed until he falls asleep, which takes hours… and I wonder how they’ve never reached the point where they could just settle him down, say goodnight and leave the room?

B6 also does a lot of clubs and activities, and the parents are very full on with high flying careers and equally high expectations for B6. The whole house is set up for B6, literally it’s wall to wall toys, games, materials, equipment and musical instruments in every room. Parents are lovely and very loving, but I can’t help feeling that a lower key, less stuff, less ‘spoiling’ (ie everything’s about him) a bit more normality, winding down time/tv after school some days, and better boundaries around his behaviour would make a difference.

No judgment OP, but if your DD’s life is similarly full on, might her bedtime tantrums be a subconscious way of trying to redress the balance and control the narrative?

Sounds good. I probably needed a copy about 10 years ago when we were going through similar things either our DD.

Be honest @Bluffinwithmymuffin - is it really the parents you're judging there or the mum?

He sounds like a very lucky little boy.

Of course he wants his parents' attention at bedtime.

I think too that lots of “stuff” doesn’t seem to help our DC. They definitely need space, both space in their day to wind down and physical space around them to help them relax.

I bought it for one of my nieces.

All it revealed about my daughter was a) she didn't know what the problem was and b) it wasn't in her control. I honestly think it's biochemical in her case. I've done a few tests with a visually identical vitamin D tablet. She doesn't make sufficient melatonin.

With that level of activity, her body will be exhausted but not her brain. She needs to have everything calm to be able to sleep. If my head isn't tired I'm awake for hours. I'd cancel most of the clubs but particularly those that finish late (if bed is 7.30, anything finishing after 6) so she gets time to rest, wind down and get into a sleep ready mindset. I'm an adult and HATE having to go to bed immediately that I arrive home.

If she is doing clubs every single night she may be overwhelmed and need more unwinding time. Try moving bedtime to Ten pm and giving her several clear hours of calm, one in one, parent child focused time. Also try giving her a book or a favorite toy that comes out when she is bathed and in bed ready for sleep and only comes out then. Instead of taking things away offer this special doll/book when she is in bed.

Well if she were mine her room would be stripped of anything breakable for a start. Ditto pens etc would be confiscated until she’s mature enough to use them only on the manner they are intended.

Sorry if you’ve already answered this, but have you asked her about how she is feeling about her bedtime routine when it’s not bedtime? In a neutral space like driving to the supermarket or while preparing food for lunch? I read from your posts that you’re asking her while she’s in her meltdown phase which obviously isn’t going to get you a coherent answer.

Ours was like this. In our room until she was 13. Later diagnosed as ADHD.

Im not sure why you are punishing a child for such a high level of anxiety. And it is anxiety causing this whether she’s ND or not. And she sounds like she could be. She will be overstimulated from all her activities even though she enjoys them.

I’d let her fall asleep down stairs initially. Break the cycle. Ask her how she wants to do it.’

The smirking sounds like an ND stress reaction.

Sounds like she may have PDA.

Hang on - she does clubs that finish at 6.30 or even 7pm and you want her to go to sleep at 7.30? If you want her to do the clubs then you’re asking a lot to get her to transition to sleep 30m after finishing the club.

Also - when does she get to spend time with you and your husband?

Maybe this behaviour is telling you that she wants more time with her parents. Behaving like this at bedtime is at least getting her a lot of parental attention.

That sounds incredibly hard.

My similar aged night owl DD goes up around 8.30pm, 9pm on weekends/school hols. She sleeps at around 9/9.30pm. She listens to stories or reads with the lamp on. It can be a battle some nights, not as bad as you describe though.

Bedtime sounds about right time for her age - dd8 is in bed for 730 but she loves her sleep

some of her class don’t go to bed till 9 which seems late for me on a school night

maybe try 8pm for her

she possibly could be over tired as activities every night sounds tiring so can she cut back on some

if she really enjoys them then can say her behaviour means she can’t go to them as a consequence

My friend's daughter refused bedtime in a similar way. Eventually they got to the bottom of the reason and it was that she was afraid someone would break into her room.

They set up a camera for her to watch the window of her bedroom. A few nights of knowing the camera was there and seeing that absolutely nothing happened (except the cat pottering about) put her mind at rest and solved the problem.

I just wanted to comment on her smirking.

Sometimes DC can have the wrong emotion come up.

For example laughing when angry.

So I wouldn’t necessarily take the smirking as a sign of her doing any of this on purpose ot being in anyway in control of how she behaves.

Just wondering too what she does before her evening activities? Is she getting sometime then to wind down? When does she fit in reading and homework?

At a similar age O was scared of crocodiles coming in the house and eating my mum.

her fears may not be rational.

(my mum used to live in Africa and had told an over imaginative child too many stories)