5yo getting in trouble every single day at school 😩

[CosyJumpersAndRain]

hi all, just need a bit of a handhold really cos i feel like i’m doing everything wrong 😭

my son’s only just started year 1 and we’ve literally had a message or “a quick word” at pick up every single day since term started. shouting out, not sitting still, pushing other kids when he’s frustrated, running off in the playground. teacher said he’s “always on red” on their behaviour chart and today she actually said he’s the only one in the class who’s not had a single green day 😩 i just felt so embarrassed

he’s full of energy, like never stops moving, always has been. bedtime’s a nightmare, up and down all night. eats basically nothing except plain pasta and cereal 🙈 i know it sounds bad but i’m literly exhausted with him. we’ve tried reward charts, taking screen time off, talking to him calmly, shouting (i know i shouldn’t), everything. he just laughs or goes into full meltdown mode

school hinted about maybe “further support” but i’ve no idea what that means or if they think it’s something serious. partner just says “he’ll grow out of it” but i’m not so sure anymore.

has anyone else had a 5yo like this and it turned out ok?? i feel like the worst mum ever 🤦‍♀️x

Not sure I'm following.

Are you the previous poster pregnant with number 5?

@CosyJumpersAndRain I read your post and it’s me back in the playground. My bubbly wild little boy was always in”trouble” impulsive and loud. He was never really naughty just full on energy and never sitting down long periods. He was equally charming and funny.

Some teachers despised him and others could see the future for him and told not to break his spirit.

we endured a lively infant and primary, he was star of the show at year 6 end play . As he go older his energy was focussed by his choice into sport.

we passed through high school and college without event . He is at uni now and still playing sport.

I just wanted to say this will pass and he will find a focus for his energy and his exuberance will serve him well in life

I am a teacher of 27 Years. I think that the beige food and meltdowns you describe may indicate possible ASD. You would need to raise this with the school and your GP to see what they think. Year 1 is less play and more structured. Children can struggle with the transition.

I think she was talking about me, so don't worry.

Thank you for sharing your experience, sounds like us, although some of what you describe has been considered PDA for us, and so I approach it with that in mind.

The meltdown/ flight risk/ refusing any request kid is really really difficult to parent obviously, and clearly, despite your ipad ban, you're still dealing with all the things.. I found that looking into the pda issue the most helpful, in terms of our child becoming less, um, turbulent in their reactions.

If you are genuinely interested, I'm happy to go hunt for the work on nd and screens.

I have to say I'm pretty appalled at the idea of giving someone an ND kid as a "curveball" to shut them up. What a horrible way to use/ view it. I think she was assuming that I had no real experience of the issues.

The reason I asked about your child, btw, was because you said that after a week everything was fine, which would be more likely in an NT child. I really don't think that suddenly dismantling major areas of a child's life is ever wise, but esp if they're potentially ND.

What a disgusting thing to say. Do you see your own children as a trial you've been thrown?

Sorry it feels harsh, but that’s because it’s coming at you all at once.

Remember, no matter what anyone here says, your child hasn’t changed. He’s still the same little boy you adore. Remember also though, the goal is to help him.

I’m in Australia and have been a teacher for over 40 years. If you’re being told these things by a teacher who has worked with hundreds of children, then they’re politely telling you they’re seeing something further outside the norm. They’re not medical specialists though, so that can’t tell you what they think it might be.

Here, I’d be saying get an appointment with a private paediatrician ASAP and have him assessed for ADHD and Autism. Remember, this is a spectrum and affects children so very differently. Some children are very clever and high functioning, but their little brains and bodies can’t relax enough to show it. A diagnosis won’t change your child. It just tells everyone else how to best help your child.

While hopefully ruling those out, it is also time to look at things like his diet, bedtime routine and screen time, as well as your parenting styles. There are indeed things that children grow out of, but parents can support and speed these things up, especially when they’re on the same page.

Remember, it’s not a criticism of your child, it’s about everyone working together to find the best strategies to support him. Work on that and it will help him. ❤️

I’ve got a child with adhd, and lots of friends with kids with autism and adhd diagnosis and this feels very familiar.

One thing which I think might make you feel a bit more in control would be to respond to the chats after school with “please could he have some extra help in school to support with that?”

It is the experience of most Sen parents that once you get the support in school right, things improve at home.

I do think improving diet will help, but if he currently only eats a couple of safe foods, I don’t think eg getting him to make a stew with you will work. I’d focus on getting him to like two or three different proteins and serve them with every meal. Try thinks which are very consistent - eg ham, bought chicken nuggets, roast chicken breast. Give him a daily vitamin, plus some extra magnesium and zinc.

I also agree with pp suggesting exercise. It sounds like he already does a lot so have a look at your routine and see if there is any way you can build something in before and after school every day.

Can I recommend cosmic yoga on you tube for some exercise before school. My little boy does this before school and it’s really helpful. The yoga is themed around eg Mario , sonic etc which he loves

@Vbtutoring

Hi, also a teacher of approx 30 years!
30 years ago, I had a class of 30, no TA, no SENCO. I had some pretty difficult behaviour to manage but there was no immediate ‘jump’ to ASD/ADHD diagnosis,

The onus was on me to differentiate and provide the right environment.
I can’t remember any exclusions taking place throughout the school.
30 years later we are diagnosing to the extent that SEND services can’t cope and exclusions are at a record high.
My opinion is that over-medicalising children’s needs is not proving to be successful.
It places a ‘difficulty’ to lie within the child - rather than placing that ‘difficulty’ on being an environmental barrier that needs to change.

Such as - better teaching techniques!
I’m with a very boy-heavy, sporty, energetic reception class at the moment. They are amazing - they need to RUN, and I have no doubt they will be stars on a sports pitch one day.
If I chose to provide an environment where they ‘must’ sit still and sit at desks all day, reciting phonics - it simply wouldn’t work.
So do I diagnose all my active boys with ADHD (with non existent SEND services) or create the best learning environment I can to suit their needs?

This. Great idea if all screens were not working for a month. And ...
Ask his father to model no screens and to actively go out and play ball and take his kid to the park.
Ask his Dad to also play lego etc where they both concentrate and co operate until desired outcome.
Ask Dad to model reading.
Try different breads, toasts, crackers and dips and spreads.
Have DS in the kitchen making food. Buy only low sugar cereals. Does he eat pears? or cut up apples? Are cheese, rice, wholemeal pasta pale enough in colour for 5 year old.
Would it help if the whole family went to bed earlier for a while? Does 5 year old swim? Have simple body checkup for hearing, sight etc.

I’m a teacher and a few things jump out
Firstly, I think school could be more positive but it must be hard for them and they’ll possibly have other parents complaining. It sounds like Nursery overlooked his behaviour with the running around after him, laughing it off. That was the opportunity to make a start on tackling it before the baby arrived so now it’s much harder for you.

As everyone said, firm, consistent boundaries. You hear he’s misbehaved at school there needs to be a consequence at home e.g. no iPad or at least no iPad for x time. He needs to know that so he has an added reason to behave at school unless he has no idea or control over what he’s doing.

Id ask for a home/school communication book so you don’t keep getting pulled in. Set targets together e.g. both at home or school to not hurt anyone else.

I know it’s hard but try not to excuse his behaviour (he’s tired) , he’s 5, old enough to know how to behave unless there are additional needs and he doesn’t know/can’t control himself.

Tell school how much you’re struggling, I’m sure they’ll want to help. Try not to be hard on yourself, it’s so hard being a parent.

You are making quite a lot of excuses though. I get that your partner is away a lot and doesn't think theres as much of a problem. Is he ever able to do the school run and be the person who is being told all of this by the teachers? He definitely needs to come to parents evening and hear it or be part of the meetings for the additional help thats on offer.

I get that you have a baby as well but parenting 2 kids after school solo for a few hours doesn't have to be a big drama. Plenty of people manage it with routines and activities planned in. Its not like you're cooking a proper meal in the evenings so why does he need to be glued to the iPad?Could you play lego or cars with him for a bit in the evenings?

Do you have any extra help? A family member nearby who can take your baby for a couple of hours while you take DS swimming or for a bike ride? He would probably really benefit from some 1 on 1 time with you when you aren't distracted by the baby so you can talk about school and try and find out how he feels about it all.

You do need to resolve this. My child was the one on the receiving end of a "spirited" 5 year old who had no boundaries and it was awful hearing his stories about being hit, chased and bothered constantly throughout his first years at school. That child is now at secondary school and in detention/exclusion every week.

To the poster who said if he refuses to go outside just make him. Good luck with that. Not sure what planet some of these posters are on. My ASD son is almost 5 and weighs 15 kilos. Every morning for school we have a battle leaving the house because he can't cope with transition - often his clothes feel wrong or he simply doesn't want to go. Ob weekends some days he doesn't want to leave. There are so many times I have had to carry him to school, kicking and screaming only for him to run in and be completely fine once we get there. But noe weighing 17 kilos i cannot simply "make him leave". He's too heavy. I dont know how you'd expect a woman with a baby to manage that. And then also have to manage dealing with a 5 year old that doesn't want to leave the house who has been made to and then becomes a flight risk.

@FriedPickle I 100% agree it's about providing the right classroom environment and I've seen that firsthand with my ASD son. Having seen him struggle and become very withdrawn in 1 preschool setting where they were restraining him and telling him off for being naughty all the time - it was a montessori school with 30+ kids, stuck inside a classroom for 3 hours at a time, no toys only wooden learning equipment and so many rules. He was miserable. We took him out and 1 week later moved him to a preschool with 8 kids and 2 teachers and he thrived, loved it and no behavioural issues at all.
He's now in mainstream reception and thriving. Why? Small classes with 16 kids in a class with 1 teacher and 1 assistant - less noisy. No uniform so he can wear clothes he feels comfortable in. Big classrooms with lots of space to move. Lots of breaks and focus on outdoors - there's a forest on site. His teachers tells us that he is the first to help and a brilliant listener- they are very relaxed and accommodating and he responds really well to positive reinforcement. Making a big deal out of bad behaviour just makes him feel bad because he knows the difference between right and wrong but can't regulate his emotions like his peers.
What doesn't go so well is eating so often he barely eats at all and he tells us its the smell of the other kids food. So for him his environment is a huge factor. We are overseas but I think unfortunately alot of UK state schools are antiquated and not able to cater for kids with SEN. They are not funded and don't have the resources.

How did people with ADHD manage to self-regulate before iPads were invented? There must be another way to help OP’s DS calm down that isn’t a screen.

Nope. I see them as wonderful, creative, delightful children who just happen to be ND. To me, their ND is just part of who they are.

The school however, denying their ND, is unnecessarily making their lives harder. As are idiot adults who deny such a thing exists and who just blame parents for allowing bad behaviour which is actually a response to a school system that causes those children to struggle every day.

And maybe the only way ignorant, self-important, arrogant individuals who proclaim other parents are failing can actually understand is by having a ND child themselves. I mean, I think it'd be easier to just educate themselves, but hey, what do I know (other than being an educator AND a parent of a ND child).

Seriously, take the screen away.

Developing brains are being ruined by screens. iPads and things give instant gratification. You get a quick pay off from a screen, particularly with today’s content. Kids brains are developing into needing constant stimulation in the form of movement and lights. I hugely believe this is why kids aren’t playing with toys for as long now and why a lot of imaginative play that was seen so readily pre-90s, has disappeared.
I also think (ducks and runs for cover) it’s causing issues like ADHD because children’s brains are developing with this desire for the same stimulation they get from screens.
Put a kid in a classroom and they don’t have the same level of stimulation and their behaviour changes because their brain is craving the hit they get from the quick pay off from the screen. Kid gets frustrated, behaviour gets worse.

These are brains that are still developing. You are essentially moulding that brain for the rest of this child’s life. You are going to make them struggle in ALL aspects of life- work, relationships…

For the love of god, please take children off screens. No 5 year old needs to watch more than a couple of TV programs. They do NOT need an iPad.

@Crapola25

That’s great to hear he is doing so well! My son has an EHCP, but I was in a situation where I had one NHS paediatrician wanting to diagnose ASD, and one NHS paediatrician who didn’t after an ADOS screening. This has made me sceptical!

We have a boy in another year who IMO - behaves very well when he is with staff members who ‘like’ him, are gentle and recognise his abilities. Unfortunately he encountered a member of staff who didn’t deal with him the right way and the boy is now on a two day suspension. Yet the ethos is to jump to the child being the problem and not that the situation could have been handled better.

I think we should be fully questioning our teaching techniques and the environment we provide before deeming children to be ‘unteachable’. This is their life and life chances! We shouldn’t be setting them up along a path of exclusion and failure.
I think many intelligent children are highly sensitive. In terms of food, my DS’s best friend only eats 6 foods - very sensitive to textures. However BMI is spot on and does drink a lot of milk with supplements in water. Beginning tasting more, even if just a lick. I think many children are sensitive to food, and as adults we need to see it through their eyes. We’ve had many years of getting used to foods, foods from different cultures and textures - whereas for them it is all new and can need more of a very gradual introduction.

Well done for recognising that your child needed the right environment!! You sound like a great mum x

I’m a huge fan of the ‘social model of need’ rather than ‘the medical model of need’. I think this needs to be ingrained in schools and I’m not sure how ASD/ADHD/PDA etc fits with this.

Anna Maxwell Martin talks very passionately about - as opposed to ‘labels’ - recognising ‘individual needs’. I agree with her wholeheartedly. There is a risk of stereotype and bias with labels - especially when criteria is broad and - in my experience - potentially diagnosed incorrectly.

www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1015742873816262&surface_type=vod&referral_source=vod_deeplink_unit

There was a child in my son's class who was a complete nightmare for various reasons. It disrupted the whole class and impacted the other kids, including nasty and violent behaviour.

DS and his friend ended up getting the worst of it at one point.

Mum was in complete denial about the whole thing. Kept saying 'hes only little', 'its due to him being premature, he'll catch up' and 'hes the youngest in the year he just needs a bit more time'.

We could all see there was a massive problem even at nursery and it only got progressively worse.

It all came to a head in year 3. He was terrorising the class. On one occasion I know he had another child by the throat in front of parents. Mum just laughed and did nothing. The other parent was in shock and rescued her child from the situation and was overly polite about it. But this type of behaviour was normal and constant.

We weren't. We went to town with the school on how they were not safeguarding our child and how they were failing the other child because it was clear there was a problem and he needed help.

I am aware that the other family ended up with social services involved which they didn't like because they were middle class. But Mum was still in denial, and still unwilling to do anything about it saying 'he'll grow out of it'.

At this point Dad had enough and the relationship nearly broke down. Mum was pretty much given an ultimatum, to start engaging and taking it seriously or they'd break up.

Mum made the decision to go with it. The child was put on medication.

The difference was like night and day. He still was difficult and acts up, the level is much lower and more manageable. All the other parents noticed too, and I think there was this collective sigh of relief in terms of not worrying how you were going to deal with the next round of issues created by this one child.

The moral of the story is - don't be the parent in denial. Be proactive. If the school are saying that he needs further support, he needs further support. Bite their hand off for it - budgets are tight and they won't be saying this if there isn't an issue. Find out what the problem is, read up, start fighting for what support he needs.

Failing to do this will lead to isolation and embarrassment and a world of new problems which only get worse as your child gets older. They won't 'grow out of it' without support and intervention because they are caught in a cycle of behaviour and they don't know how to break out of it. A five year old kid doesn't have the capacity to do this alone. A five year old kid acting up to this degree isn't coping with the environment. The other kids understand the expectations placed on them - why isn't he responding in the same way to the normal rules ?

If your partner is in denial, that's one of your battles. If you can't get your partner onboard, then you need to re-examine the relationship because your son needs you.

The parents of the kid I know are still together but I know it's not unusual for couples to split over one being in denial.

This.

ADHD coping strategies are useful for most people, even if they don't have ADHD. Read up.

Screen time being limited and used effectively when you do have it, is one of those things. Used badly or as a coping strategy for parents rather than as a tool to motivate your child, it will end badly. The screen isn't necessarily a bad thing, but you have to understand when it's becoming an issue. Carrot and stick applies. I personally think it's more useful as a carrot rather than using the threat of removal as a stick because it's all about motivation and rewarding correct behaviour. You'll get a better response if you frame it right. The concept of 'earning' screen time is much more positive than the concept of punishing and removing it. Punishment clearly isn't working in school so yes it is about turning this on it's head as a parental tool. Use it when it works for you but as part of a positive feedback loop, not just because you are desperate.

Tbh, despite other comments on this thread saying "don't assume it's autism/ADHD, it could just be poor parenting" I don't think that's helpful or practical anyway.

If you assume ADHD as your starting point and look at it from how to cope, you are automatically going to do many of the things that will help anyway. You don't need a diagnosis to improve things in this sense.

A diagnosis often doesn't always help much anyway apart from mean the school have to give greater leeway and support in legal terms.

If they are offering support at this stage, take it. You don't have anything to lose.

“What Anna Maxwell Martin beautifully reframes is the idea that all children have individual needs. Some are more visible than others. Some are labelled; many are not. But when we move away from categories and focus instead on the child in front of us, something changes. We become more present. More flexible. More curious.
It's not about ignoring the importance of diagnoses or the vital support systems they unlock. That's crucial. But it's also about language and the power it holds. When we call a child "SEN", even with the best of intentions, we risk putting them in a separate box. When we call them a child with individual needs, we're reminded that they belong exactly where they are, in the mix just like everyone else.
So yes, I completely agree with Anna Maxwell Martin. Let's keep celebrating children not for fitting in but for being their full, individual selves. And let's make sure they know that whatever their needs are, we'll meet them with patience, positivity and belief.”

@RedToothBrush Young children should NOT be labelled as ‘nasty’ or ‘nightmares’ - that feeds the problem. It’s the adult provision that is the ‘nightmare’ or inadequate. I’m not a fan of giving young children medication if it can be addressed first and foremost by adults caring for the child appropriately and providing the right environment.
I spoke to an excluded 5 year old boy yesterday who told me he was ‘bad’. This boy not is not ‘bad’ nor should he think that of himself at such a young age.

I don't really care whether you are a fan of the use of the word 'nasty'.

It was appropriate for what was happening. The children was threatening to kill on a regular basis and was recruiting other children to carry out his orders and harm another child.

Age 7.

It was nasty. It was premeditated. And it was deliberate.

Even with SEN this behaviour wasn't excusable and I feel strongly when you are at that stage of matters, a desperate need to be politically correct and avoid certain words is counter productive and actually harmful because it minimises what is happening to ANOTHER CHILD and it becomes a barrier to safeguarding them. It allows parents and schools to abdicate legal and moral responsibilities rather than addressing them.

My own child has SEN issues so I'm not unsympathetic. I do think it is appropriate to use these words even for a struggling child, if they are demonstrating certain traits with it. Otherwise you create this idea that SEN kids can't be bullies and can't be held responsible for premeditated actions which is absurd in its own right. I do think intervention is part of process - we never once asked for this child to be expelled or suspended despite what was happening as we realised it was a complex situation and he needed help. However 'nasty' was also completely appropriate to convey the severity of what was happening to our child and others.

Words have meaning and sometimes it is necessary to use them even in sensitive situations otherwise you put a vulnerable party at risk. I think people sometimes rush to defend SEN kids, at all costs, forgetting that the other kids matter and pretend there's no possibility that the other kid might also be SEN.

DSs friend was traumatised by what was happening to him from this kid and DS wasn't much better. We wouldn't tolerate similar for adults because we understand the impact of harassment, stalking, violence, coercive control and abuse but somehow we say 'oh it's ok because the kid is SEN and doesn't know any better'. Which frankly in my experience is bullshit anyway. Even at 7 it was about getting off on a power trip and the child knew it was something he shouldn't do. He was actively saying "I can do anything I like, and my mum won't tell me off". And he was right.

It was nasty.