Am I expecting too much of my four year old?

[Whaleadthesnail]

Honestly I thought the meltdowns about trivial things would have stopped by now, or at least not still be happening EVERY DAMN DAY.

DD was 4 in July, and almost every morning descends into a screaming fit about something or other. It's like a switch she'll be absolutely fine bubbly and happy and then all of a sudden you've done the wrong thing and there's no coming back from it. It's ruining almost every morning so we all end up starting the day in a bad mood.

Here are some recent examples:

• refuses to go to the toilet when she wakes up, something she's been doing EVERYDAY for 2 years. We end up carrying her there because she's obviously about to burst. She's in a foul mood because of it.

• says she wants me to choose clothes for her to wear. Screams no NOT THAT ONE, throws it across the room. Is crying on the floor but will not choose herself and will not allow me to choose either. I end up forcefully dressing her. Screaming/crying etc.

• asks her dad for help putting her shoes on. He undoes the buckles to put them on. She screams because she wants him to put them on with the buckles done up. Obviously this is not possible. Shoes get thrown across the room. Screaming/crying continues.

• Asks me for help putting socks on. I scrunch them up to the toes to slide them on that way. She screams NO NOT THAT WAY. Then will not let me help even though she asked. Will not do it herself. Socks get chucked. Screaming/crying continues.

• she asked me to do a bun in her hair. I do a bun. She is upset because her hat won't go over it. I start to re-do the bun and she asks for a ponytail instead. She asks if I am doing a ponytail and I say yes. She screams at me because she wants a bun. I say I will literally do whatever she wants just tell me. It's too late because she's already descended into screaming and crying and I can't get through to her.

Another thing is she'll default to crying/whining for things even when she's just asking for something, like more weetabix or a glass of water or just basic things I would say yes to.

She's incredibly bright, she doesn't tantrum like this if I say no to things she asks for like toys in a shop, she's generally a good kid e.g. will turn the TV off straight away when I say, will clear up her toys when asked etc. it's just these huge meltdowns that seem to come out of nowhere I can't get my head around.

Where are we going wrong?

That sounds familiar! We’re finding either tired hungry or out of routine makes these worse. I think they’re also developmental in a way that they’re trying to assert independence, but def the ‘I have something very similar in my head and can’t explain it to you’ frustration is important to understand. communication seems more skilled than it is

when meltdown is occurring as far as possible we’re also treating it often as anxiety attack - be calm, give some space and reassurance. Wait for it to pass and they can get comfortable with the feelings then try again. Pushing makes it worse because it becomes more panicky. Obviously more tricky when things are time pressured so a lot more time checks and bit of gamifying getting ready

It's the "fucking fours". Both of mine were like banshees before they started school - generally fine outside the house but a nightmare to get ready. DD got dropped off at nursery in her underpants one morning because she flew into a rage and I needed to get to work.

Absolutely fine once they started school.

My son did things like this and now he's on the waiting list for an autism assessment because it started to cause problems at school.

Any other signs that could point to autism? Special interests, sensory issues (avoidance as well as seeking certain sensations), does she understand jokes/sarcasm, any attachment issues etc. I may be way off here but autism is often picked up much later in girls. I suggest you have a look online at how the symptoms tend to present in girls and see if it fits.

Sounds like you’re not giving her enough autonomy. Try choosing an outfit together the night before, then leaving it out for her to dress herself in the morning. Tell her you expect her to dress herself. You expect her to put her own shoes on, then pretend to be busy if she asks for help.
Forcing her to go to the toilet! I wouldn’t, just leave her….. she might have an accident, then she’ll learn. She might not have an accident.
I feel like you need to give her more control, she’s growing up.

I wouldn't force her to go to the toilet, she'll go herself and if she wets herself then so be it.

Same with dressing, just leave her ,if she doesn't want to get dressed.

At one time I gave my awkward child a list (on paper) of morning tasks to do and it worked a charm. I walked away to get breakfast ready and they followed the list. A bit older than yours is now but you couid use pictures (toilet etc) and keep it short. I think sometimes if they're grumpy and they have you there, they get themselves into a state / demand your attention to try to make themselves feel better.

@LottieMary thanks that's a really good tactic to help my mindset. Honestly I just start getting cross because a) I've tried my hardest to get it right and not flip the switch and b) we've got to get out the door. I know getting cross doesn't help but it's hard in the moment.

@Planktonplank that made me laugh! She's been to nursery in some questionable outfits too 😂

@Ficklebricks yes I have wondered about this. It very clearly runs in DPs side of the family. His brother is diagnosed. His mum isn't but it's obvious, and DP himself shows a lot of signs. I have also started to wonder about myself recently have done a lot of reading and reflection on my childhood. DD can be funny about things like sleeves (very set on whether she wants short sleeves, long sleeves or nothing). She is also constantly putting things in her mouth even at four, and chewing fingers, toys etc obviously as described she's incredibly specific about how her hair has to be and also the tightness of things like shoes and hats. I wasn't sure if all this was normal toddler/preschooler demands though, or maybe if the whole picture does point to some sort of ND. Her special interest is Frozen but I think that's normal for a four year old!! 😂

Sounds like you’re not giving her enough autonomy.

I thought the opposite. 🤣 Someone has learned they tantrum and they will get their own way - different hairstyle, different clothes……. At 4 when they can communicate Ds would have gotten short shrift with that behaviour, and learnt it got him nowhere.

It sort of is and it sort of isn’t. You have to pick your battles. Why does she have to forcefully go to the toilet when she wakes up? Just leave her to go on her own. If she was 2 and toilet training, yes. But at 4, no.

As for the rest of it, it sounds like you are letting her get away with being a bit of a pain. If she throws a fit about her clothes, what do you do? Do you go along with her demands or are there consequences for being rude? If that was mine, she would go to her room to sit out until she calms down, is ready to apologise and get dressed politely.

To me it sounds like she is trying to say she wants choice in what she does, like what to wear, when to go to the toilet, etc so you need to give her more freedom to make those choices, but within limits. If she gets really emotionally dysregulated and rude, she needs a break to calm down and change her behaviour. It’s going to take a lot of time to start with so you’ll need to plan the morning accordingly.

@Myjobisridiculous we tried choose the night before for a few weeks. Same thing happened in the morning because she didn't want what she had chosen the night before.

She has loads of autonomy, it's usually when she has actually asked for help. And unfortunately I can't leave her to it completely because we do have to get out the door on time in the morning!

@mindutopia

I guess the point is her 'demands' are completely unreasonable. There's is no 'going along with them' !

I literally cannot put her shoes on with the buckles done up.

With the clothes thing she'll refuse to choose and refuse what I choose. The consequence is that I just get her dressed kicking and screaming because she has to get to nursery and I have to get to work.

With the hair she's changed her mind and not told me so she's upset with what I've done. The consequence is she goes to nursery without her hair done or she can calm down and asks me nicely for what she wants but that's 20 minutes later and the morning is already ruined.

I'm pretty no nonsense when it comes to these things.

Also the toilet thing I should have been more clear, she quite obviously needs it. She grabs herself and starts to act up. We don't take her if she doesn't clearly need it.

Some of these you can anticipate - like the shoes. Just unbuckle them when you take them off.
Talk to her about this behaviour and say you don't want to start the day with this upset. Chat about how you could avoid it.
She may grow out of it, but I'd keep a watchful eye around ND.

I see where you're coming from but my struggle is that the meltdown doesn't get her anywhere. if she just asked for different clothes or different hair It would be fine. The meltdown does not get her what she wants because she is almost cutting her nose off to spite her face. Asks me to help choose and refuses what I choose. Asks me for help and refuses the help.

I agree with all the PP saying she needs time to calm down and come back and ask nicely, which works on a weekend when we have the time

For the clothes, give her the choice of just two outfits - this or that. But under no circumstances do you accept any throwing. That needs stopping straight away. For hair, would you have it shorter so there’s no need to style it? A hair clip or hairband only.

My 4 year old can be like this too op, it definitely links to tiredness with him but its bloody hard work

Is she due to start school in September? We had an awful summer with my daughter just before she started school. So obstinate and would argue the sky is green and grass blue. It settled down once she actually started school

I recognise this in my 3 year old. Also very bright and articulate. Will fly off rails for no reason and will be super fussy about hair/
clothes. I’ve tried being strict, I’ve found the best course is to let the tantrum pass
without speaking/ demanding, then try again, but it doesn’t always work.

this describes me to a tee as a child. Never diagnosed, but I’m definitely autistic. Sensory processing issues. Hate itchy items, polo necks, labels in clothes. Used to scream when I had to wear those knee high school socks with patterns up the sides because they drove me mad. It wasn’t enjoyable.
apparently, I was just a little bitch (thanks Dad!) until I was 8. But seriously, it was exhausting for me too!

Yes, she starts in two weeks!

Nursery did suggest that this behaviour could be driven by underlying anxiety about starting school. She's only ever indicated to us that she's so excited but perhaps this is how worry is manifesting. It has been worse in the last few weeks too...

The whining ignore until she asks in a normal voice, bare in mind this is now habit so you are going to have to be very mentally strong to break this!
For things like not going to the loo, not putting her socks, shoes on etc then natural consequences. She wets herself, crack on as if fine you'll be going to school barefoot/in your underwear then, in theory you'd hope she would then get dressed in the car at the latest if she believes you are serious!
My two are SEN so a visual schedule really helps, they have a list of things to do in the morning, use the loo, brush teeth, get dressed, eat breakfast etc and they switch the little velcro person to "done" and the clear expectations and routine helps us get out the door in the morning

I'd also keep an eye on possible ND, but for now, it seems like there's something about mornings that she currently can't cope with. The detective job is to figure out what it is and if it can be made easier for her at all.

Is she getting enough sleep, generally waking naturally? Is she hungry? Mine usually need breakfast first thing – attempts to get dressed, do hair, etc. before going downstairs to eat were disastrous. Does she need a slower start to the day? Would it be better to get up fifteen minutes earlier and have that 'free' time to potter/have a leisurely breakfast/whatever? Or maybe it's that there are a lot of different tasks to be done on a morning, and it would help to have a pictorial list where she can check off each thing as it's done (breakfast, dressed, teeth, toilet, hair, shoes, etc.).

Sorry to hear your dad was unkind. I do try and remember that just because it seems silly to me doesn't mean it's not important to her. It's hard under pressure and when it feels like she's expecting me to read her mind.

Funnily enough she's the opposite with socks. They have to be stretched to their limits, as far to the knee as they can go! 😂 She looks ridiculous in summer with shorts and knee high socks but that's certainly not a hill I'm willing to die on.

Its difficult, I really feel how tough your mornings must be at the moment, and its so easy for it to ramp up and everyone just gets more and more worked up. Maybe there are ways to diffuse the situation though. We had somesimilar issues with Dd and Ds at that age. Things we did to get there were having a visual chart and immediate reward on completion. And I would be firm, blunt even, but if it escalated into tantrums I would step away for five minutes, say, 'you know what you need to do next, I'll be back in five minutes to check on you.' And let them have their strop. A lot of the time, when I came back, they would have done what she was supposed to.

On a wall in their room and in the kitchen, we had a chart which showed pictures of getting breakfast, brushing teeth, getting dressed, brushing hair, putting shoes on etc. Once those were done they could play with toys, but not before or during. Anything I found them playing with during getting ready time went on a high shelf to be given back when we were done. And absolutely no screens at all in the morning, they were way too distracting for my kids.

I found the visual chart also took a lot of the fight out of what needed to be done. The chart became the 'enemy' rather than me if that makes sense. Its on the chart so it has to be done next.

I would constantly be prompting 'what's next then?' To get them through the list, and then they had time at the end for playing if they did it.

I also took Dd out the door in pjs once because she was refusing to get dressed. I warned her it would happen, and now they know it will if I have to warn either of them again.

Mine are 5 and 7 now, and I will say I do still have to yell 'shoes!!!! Nowwwwwwww!!!!!' Repeatedly some mornings but on the whole they manage the getting ready process without too much fuss now. The chart is still up on DD's wall though. And i still say, what's next then? To get them moving. Its become habit for them now. And they've added their own bits to the routine, to fit their needs now.

It was a slog at times, and keeping a lid on my own frustration was/is definitely the hardest part. Not something I was always successful at. But parenting is a marathon, not a sprint, it takes time to make change, build good habits, and embed routines. It doesn't happen overnight.

Life changes can be really, really difficult for people with autism and at her age she won’t have any idea about how to explain that to you - hell, I’m 36 and still struggle with big changes to my life and routine!

I'd just try to ride out the next few weeks and see how she is at the start of term.
Mine is an August born and this time last year I was fully prepared to pull her out of school in the first few weeks and defer her entry as I couldn't see how she could cope with the classroom environment with the way she was but she coped remarkably. She was due to switch to a swimming lesson without me in the water with her when she started school and her swimming teacher expressed concern about who she would respond to instructions without me there as she wasn't listening to the teacher at all.
It was still a bit rocky until the October half term and then again in the week or so in the run up to Christmas and Easter school holidays. She made the jump to the next swimming level without issue too.