Am I expecting too much of my four year old?

[Whaleadthesnail]

Honestly I thought the meltdowns about trivial things would have stopped by now, or at least not still be happening EVERY DAMN DAY.

DD was 4 in July, and almost every morning descends into a screaming fit about something or other. It's like a switch she'll be absolutely fine bubbly and happy and then all of a sudden you've done the wrong thing and there's no coming back from it. It's ruining almost every morning so we all end up starting the day in a bad mood.

Here are some recent examples:

• refuses to go to the toilet when she wakes up, something she's been doing EVERYDAY for 2 years. We end up carrying her there because she's obviously about to burst. She's in a foul mood because of it.

• says she wants me to choose clothes for her to wear. Screams no NOT THAT ONE, throws it across the room. Is crying on the floor but will not choose herself and will not allow me to choose either. I end up forcefully dressing her. Screaming/crying etc.

• asks her dad for help putting her shoes on. He undoes the buckles to put them on. She screams because she wants him to put them on with the buckles done up. Obviously this is not possible. Shoes get thrown across the room. Screaming/crying continues.

• Asks me for help putting socks on. I scrunch them up to the toes to slide them on that way. She screams NO NOT THAT WAY. Then will not let me help even though she asked. Will not do it herself. Socks get chucked. Screaming/crying continues.

• she asked me to do a bun in her hair. I do a bun. She is upset because her hat won't go over it. I start to re-do the bun and she asks for a ponytail instead. She asks if I am doing a ponytail and I say yes. She screams at me because she wants a bun. I say I will literally do whatever she wants just tell me. It's too late because she's already descended into screaming and crying and I can't get through to her.

Another thing is she'll default to crying/whining for things even when she's just asking for something, like more weetabix or a glass of water or just basic things I would say yes to.

She's incredibly bright, she doesn't tantrum like this if I say no to things she asks for like toys in a shop, she's generally a good kid e.g. will turn the TV off straight away when I say, will clear up her toys when asked etc. it's just these huge meltdowns that seem to come out of nowhere I can't get my head around.

Where are we going wrong?

She sleeps well, 7.30 - 7 ish and wakes up on her own usually. Unfortunately waking her up earlier is a definite no no! Have tried that.

We do try and have breakfast asap as hunger is a trigger.

Have tried a tick list before but found we were just battling to get her to do the next thing on the list, but might be worth another try now she's a bit older.

Our DD is 3 so a bit younger but for the whining we have started to say; ‘what’s that noise, are you hurt?’ and she’s like, oh no I’m not and seems to snap out of it.

For some of the other stuff I would probably attempt a solution. Will she just pee her pants if you don’t force her on the loo? And would a few days of this put her off and encourage her to go to the loo? I’d get a kids clothes rail & put 2 or 3 outfits on there each day for her to physically select from. I’d forget the socks and let her wear slide on shoes like crocs for now and going into winter, wellies with the socks already loaded into them. I just think everything is a phase and why battle it out until you know if it’s just a phase? It’s horrible all starting the morning with tantrums etc!

I was wondering if it’s related to starting school.
It sounds bloody hard and my children are grown up now but I’d be saying, ‘Do you want to wear this or this today?’ If she yells neither then calmly tell her to choose herself then.
If she throws things, walk away and say you’re not helping her when she’s behaving like that.
With the shoes, tell her they can’t get on her feet with the buckles done up. If she complains, tell her to try it first herself then. Why aren’t the buckles being undone when she takes her shoes off? Maybe buy her some Velcro or slip on shoes for school!
I appreciate you need to be out of the house at a certain time and all this is easier said than done!
When my children were little, we had star charts for everything. Have you tried that?

My very autistic DD was a lot like this. Screaming fits over socks, waking up with her hair feeling “wrong” and nothing helped. She also has pathological demand avoidance and oppositional defiance disorder. PDA means any pressure to do something she ‘should do” and she instinctively wants to avoid doing it - toileting was a big one she’d hide behind the sofa when she needed the toilet, also me saying “quick choose your outfit we have to go” would paralyse her as she’s under pressure but I couldn’t pick something for her either. #2 anytime something was my idea or suggestion or even me telling her do x, the ODD meant she would fight it even if it had originally been what she asked for- your hair example is perfect.

Ok so here is what we did. Researched autism in girls, PDA and ODD and changed our parenting.

The thing to realise about a meltdown is it is not the child using tears screams or even hitting/breaking thing to get what they want or their way. A meltdown is an emotional overwhelm they cannot control when everything gets too much. So the idea is to figure out what causes them and avoid the root causes. No child wants to meltdown and starting a morning off that way ruins it for them as much as you.

For the toilet- don’t make her go in the morning. You should never be physically forcing a child to get on a toilet. Ofc she is in a foul mood every morning because of it, who wouldn’t be? And this increases chances of more meltdowns because she is already emotionally dysregulated.

For other things like the shoes with buckles, sometimes kids need to see that putting shoes on with the buckles isn’t going to work. In the situation you described I would have been like “sure let’s see if we can get them on with the buckles fastened. They’d have realised hmm not working, then you can be like hmm…how about we loosen the buckles?

I have one like this; incredibly bright, but my god, he feels like the most unreasonable person I have ever met sometimes. We had an ADHD assessment as he showed lots of these traits and that came back as a yes, along with “mild” autism. He’s obsessed with fairness, will question most requests to do simple tasks (ends up doing them, but never without some smart arse response first), will only wear football kits & nothing else and still does meltdown occasionally.

He’s about to go into Year 6, and it is easier, but I’ve accepted it’ll never be “easy” with him day to day. He has tonnes of wonderful qualities, and I try my best to focus on those, but I’m only human and he tests my patience. We do laugh about it (providing he’s in the mood 😂), so that helps.

Thanks everyone, sorry I can't keep up with replies now.

Definitely some good strategies suggested, will certainly try again with the routine chart, and also see if she starts to level out once school starts....fingers crossed!

If she is ND, hate to break this to you, but she will get even worse at home when school starts even if she is a good as gold perfect angel at school. The stress at school causes masking there and then (in my case) daily hours long meltdowns starting on the walk home or as soon as we got through the door. Forget about running any errands after school,.

Honestly depends on the kid. DD was a fucking nightmare. Considered she needed an exorcism! We dreaded DS turning 4 but he’s fine! Mind mannered and pretty chill. He was a nightmare newborn though, and DD was easy - I think it ebbs and flows.

DD was awful before she started school as well (didn’t start till 5). In the months leading up to that she regressed a bit - she also started biting which she had never done before. Kids have the sharpest little teeth. On the plus side it pretty much went away the day she started school. Well she had a huge kick off when I came to pick her up because she wanted to stay in school, but after that she was much better. Transition periods are hard for kids and I think you should just ride it out.

I appreciate that.

Re. Diagnoses in girls do you have any advice on when and how we would start to think about having her assessed? Is it something that school would pick up on and advise?

It's not something I would want to rush into however for the reasons described in my earlier reply it is in the back of my mind

I would start as soon as possible, now if you can via the GP and not depend on the school. Mostly because depending on the school is a regret of mine as it took far too long for the diagnosis and her tailored accomdations to be implemented. Because her grades were always top of the class, they never did her an ECHP. I was told those were only for kids with SEN/ND and doing poorly academically. But she still needed accommodations.

Sounds like a typical just turned 4 year old girl to me!! 😄 😭 my daughter was like this too. Deep breaths, don't give too many choices. If she won't go to the toilet in the morning, then let her wet herself, hopefully she won't like that feeling and then you can calmly explain that is why we go to the toilet when we wake up and say mummy would wet herself too if she didn't. Like others said it could be underlying anxiety. It also could be she is neurodiverse, my daughter has diagnosed adhd. Does she do this at nursery or have they mentioned any signs of something like autism/adhd?

One thing that sometimes works for me (though and be hard to get into when you’re stressed and in a rush) is try and make it funny. Try to get the shoe on her foot buckled up and say it isn’t working, how do I do it? What’s a shoe?! A bit like the Bluey episode where the dad is born yesterday. Same with the toilet. I need a wee what do I do? Then she tells me to go to the toilet, what’s a toilet? It can reset the attitude and make them smile and you can get them to show you what to do. However, if in a particularly foul mood is had riled her up even more 🤣

Nursery were shocked to hear that we had behaviour issues at home! She's only ever had glowing feedback....I wonder if this indicates masking?

Same question to you if you don't mind, how did you identify that your DD may be ND and go about getting her diagnosed? Has the diagnoses helped in her everyday life?

We have this almost every hair wash (I have a DS 3.5yo) and the other day after a lot of “you need to use your words” we established he doesn’t like the smell.
we then had screaming because it was the wrong towel or something.
really tried to be patient and read the colour monster to help him understand what he was feeling.
we get a lot of screaming meltdowns out of the blue. Deff worse with the hot weather/hungry/tired.
just trying to slow it down and peel back to understand what the underlying emotion is.
although deff tricky when we’re in a hurry.

Yes this does indicate masking. Social situations are extremely draining to autistic girls. So even if they have fun at nursery or in school, by the time they get home the stress of masking has them like a boiling kettle where the smallest trigger or irritant will make that whistle start blaring.

Autistic girls are more likely to mask than boys which is why earlier generations of girls grew up undiagnosed. The expectation of autism was based on the average autistic boy who is often disruptive in class or getting into fights with classmates or throwing books through windows, or running out the school gate.

So with autism not every stressor has an instant reaction, the cumulative stresses of the day build up and then the meltdown happens at home, where they feel safe, with a safe person who is least likely to get angry at them when they have a meltdown.

So it is quite possible the morning meltdowns are not about hair, clothes, shoes but about delaying the time when you leave to go to nursery because they don’t feel up to masking all day. At 4 it’s not a conscious decision, they don’t have the insight, they are just trying to make time go slower by slowing down or refusing each routine event between waking up and going out the door.

@LoremIpsumCici this is incredibly helpful insight, thank you.

Yes it could be masking, my daughter generally masks at school and did at nursery, but there were still signs, lots of fidgeting, sensory issues, trouble socialising, anxiety. At home we had issues at bedtime and with sleep, meltdowns, fidgeting, hyperfocus, wouldn't listen, very clingy. Once she was in year 1 the school senco assessed her in class and they did the paperwork and sent it off to the paediatrician, it took around a year and she was diagnosed just before her 7th birthday. The diagnosis didn't really change anything as she was already getting some support at school, she is still hard to manage at home, but as she's getting older it's getting easier. At 4 it could still just be typical behaviour so try not to worry about autism/adhd, things may become clearer at school and if it does then a referral can be made then.

The reason I say to wait until she starts school and if they pick up on possible neurodiversity is because they are more likely to accept the referral if she is having issues in 2 settings e.g at home and at school. Unless you feel the behaviour is severe then speak with the Dr and see if they are willing to refer now.

Sorry haven't read the full thread, but mine has been similar. Some things that worked for us...

• She has a list of "jobs" in the morning that she needs to do before she goes downstairs - a wee, brushing her teeth, making her bed and getting dressed. We'll help her do any of those, but if she's being rude / difficult, we won't help. Usually the draw of breakfast is enough to get her through those tasks speedily
• Saying the above, mine is constantly hungry and I have to keep on all those basic needs, e.g., hunger, thirst etc. - otherwise she's v difficult
• I've found actually saying something like "I'm getting really frustrated" helpful and teaching her to talk about her emotions too, e.g., "I'm frustrated too" - then we can usually problem solve, e.g., I'm frustrated because she's wriggling when I'm brushing teeth, she's frustrated because she's bored of having her teeth done - solution, she stands still and I'll make it as quick and fun as possible etc etc
• If she whines / shouts, she doesn't get what she want. I usually respond with something like "how else can you speak to mummy?"
• I do find screens make her behaviour worse generally

My son was VERY much like this at 4. I was in despair at times because none of the advised strategies (choice, restricted choice, sand timers, timetables, gamification, special 'calming' toys etc etc) worked with him - it felt like he was just determined to pick a fight no matter what.

He's 5.5 now and things have been much, much better for quite a few months. We've had a bit of a re-emergence of some of the behaviour coinciding with him just starting school (we're not in England). I'm keeping an eye on things from a neurodiversity point of view but at the moment my working hypothesis is it's a combination of the age he was/is and some displaced anxiety about changes in his life.

I don’t have a child this age, but my niece does. Her child is ND and she made a chart with pictures of what needed to be done every morning, and tokens to attach to the pictures when the task was done, leaving the child to decide in what order. Lots of her friends with NT children have copied the idea and they all swear by it. It seems to help to give them more agency.

Is this primarily a morning thing? What’s she like the rest of the day at the weekend etc? Maybe she just isn’t a morning person!? Sorry if that’s not helpful but lots of people aren’t.

Also I know lots of four year olds and they are often much angrier than toddlers, I don’t know why - school does seem to even them out once they start so I hope that happens with your little girl.

Mine was a nightmare up until the age of about 4.

you get pulled into a false sense of security at that age because you think they’re older/more mature than they are, especially as their speech can be really quite advanced at that age. But remember, only a couple of years ago she was a toddler. She’s still really young, still learning how to manage her emotions etc.

I do think that you need to be really firm and there needs to be some punishments coming her way for the excessive outbursts over such trivial things. Don’t let her get away with that.

but I’m sure she will come good so try not to worry too much

There's a book you might relate to called "My Big Shouting Day".

here's a better version.