Why is my dd so emotionally stunted?

[KTNoo]

dd1 (7 next month) has always been high maintenance. Never played well on her own, always wanting attention, gets into big tangles over everything, you know the type.

She's extremely academic and an obsessive rule follower so school in the learning sense has never been a problem. Socially, however (at school and home and everywhere really) she is just so DIFFICULT. She tries to play with younger brother and sister but goes totally over the top, almost hysterical. It's like she doesn't know how to just play and enjoy, and has some rule system going in her head all the time. Honestly, I think she would have done better in Victorian times when you just said what was expected of you rather than what you actually felt.

I was brought up in a very stiff upper lip, keep up the appearance kind of way, and I have made a lot of effort to be open and encourage expression of emotion with my dcs. So why does she find it so difficult? My other 2 have no problem. She's also incredibly black and white about everything and finds imaginative/creative things hard. I have tried the "How to talk so kids will listen" approach to try to get her to problem solve a bit more, but she just gets annoyed with me and says "But you're not telling me what I need to do!"

Does anyone else have a child like this? How can I help her?

Totalchaos, I agree it's not a nice description. I couldn't think of a nicer way to sum up the situation. What do you suggest?

Dittany you are right of course but it is over-simplified. We all bring our crutches to every relationship.

has social difficulties? socially awkward? Out of interest, have you ever felt that you or your parents were "emotionally stunted"?

I'm asking that as I wonder whether the words "emotionally stunted" came to mind as part of a criticism of yourself/your upbringing that's already bubbling under in your mind.

If she has a reading age of 12 already then she is clearly very, very bright.
Enjoy your lunch together, and if you possibly can, give your dd time to grow into her brains. What is cussed and opinionated at six/seven can be utterly delightful at eight and up.
See how much more time you can both squeeze out of the gps' visit this week.
I hope there is appropriate local support for bright children where you are. We do mock the whole G & T charade in Britain (for good reason I have to say) but I think it can offer a real lifeline to children like your dd.

Hmm...I would definitely say that at least one of my parents is totally and utterly emotionally stunted. The other is improving. I have changed totally as an adult, mainly thanks to dh's wonderfully open family. Said "improving" parent has become more open recently, possibly due to me initiating more open conversations, not that we talk deeply enough to actually discuss that!

You are right that it is something I worry about for my children. As we have always encouraged feelings, both positive and negative, it is frustrating that dd seems to put on a front a lot of the time. I even had a rare confrontation with my parents about it once - dd was stamping her feet about something and my mum stepped in to threaten some punishment if she didn't stop. I told my mum that dd is allowed to be angry if she wants to. Stamping you feet is not a crime.

My DD can be very "this is how it should be".
I find reading stories about schools (Naugtiest Girl, Jennings) where children interact and have adventures and then discussing what the children did, rights, wrongs, wiseness, appropriateness of what they did etc and it helps her work out things to do with social situations. We had a long discussion about Joan being afriad of the dark for instance (Naughtiest Girl books) as DD felt an older girl should not be afraid of the dark. I was able to tell her that all people are different and how to look beneath one explaination and try to think hard about a situation.
although she has a good reading age she may not be able to make rational assessment/criticism of what she is reading so a discussion of whys and wherefores of stories might help her understand life's ambiguities and help you fell less irritated with her.
Spike Milligan's poems are great as DD felt they were "stupid and silly" at first but we persevered and now she thinks they are funny and knows many by heart.

so if you look at yourself as a role model, or even your "improving" parent, the "stuntedness" is something that can be got over as you mature. Even if your DD doesn't always instinctively "get" the appropriate responses, it's something an intelligent girl can learn. Possibly your DD might find doing some drama classes helpful, to encourage her to see that people feel differently in different situations?

DNMW, I love the idea of growing into her brains! Sometimes we expect too much of her because she's so articulate and knows so much. Today she told her brother to stop being so pedantic - fine one to talk! The school is great but it's an embassy school full of high flying diplomats' kids so she doesn't stand out really!

Miggsie, good idea to talk about the books she's reading. She's into Roald Dahl at the moment and can tell me the plot accurately but not sure about how she interpretes it all. We had a similar situation to you - some friends were telling us they had just got a dog to try to help their 10 year old conquer his fear of dogs, at which point dd piped up loudly " He's in year 5 and he's scared of dogs?!"

I really feel for you KTNoo. I have/had similar feelings about my ds1, but I have been helped by gaining a deeper understanding of his needs because he does have aspergers (I appreciate that your dd does not).
It took me ages to grasp that he was not just being ridiculous and that he had this mass of anxiety inside of him of him that creates all of the madness.
i know how excruciating it can be - I was stood in the kitchen today listening to my dh attempt to deal with a screaming fit in the garden. Ds was so high pitched and repetitive - it drives me mad and I know it's bad to think it, but what do the neighbours in their gardens think. A large 6 yr old boy screaming because his 3 yr old sister won't get on her bike at the same time as him.
She sounds like she feels under lots of pressure and finds life hard.
My dh have to make a real effort and adopt an 'oh bless him' attitude if you know what I mean. I still get cross with him, but I think he knows I appreciate him - because I have been making a huge point of searching out and talking about his positive things with him. I have actually added cuddles into his routine because he's not spontaneous like my other 2 with cuddles.
Sorry for such a long post. My ds is emotionally stunted too - it's aharsh term, but it's a fact and we're not bad mothers for saying it!

Thanks luckylady, good to know others go through these things. I know we have to accept our children for who they are - it just seems like all the other kids I see just plod on happily (I know that's probably not the case in reality!)

It's interesting what you said about finding life hard - I've always noticed that ds, who actually really struggles at school and needs a lot of extra help to learn, is so happy in himself anyway. dd has so much ability but makes things so difficult for herself anyway.

I like the idea of putting cuddles into the routine - she also do not initiate cuddles but does not resist either. I do make a point of praising her too.

I think the problem is that you are trying to make her into something she isn't. Let her be herself. Do you have fixed ideas of what a 'girl' should be like (ie thick, subservient, always making nicey-nice)? The things you are criticising are things that are often called 'unfeminine' in females but are seen as acceptable in males.

My dd is like this. She is now 10. Misses social cues, is often bored, cant seem to think for herself unless she is critisizing others(so it seems to me) she may indeed just be notcicing the wrong bits in her Should Be Perfect world but good GOD its draining.
I have a mantra, if you have nothig nice to say dont say anything at all.
You are not alone!
She does have her good bits too, but...

No I definitely don't want her to be typically girly or anything like that. She might actually come across to someone who doesn't know her well as nicey-nice actually, but I know she's putting it on and actually feeling grupmy or whatever because she's trying to conform. That's my point - she can't seem to be herself. I just want her to feel genuinely happy.

charliecat you are describing my dd! It is indeed very draining. And I have also said the "If you haven't got anything nice to say...." She hangs next to me waiting for me to tell her what to do, which I now refuse to do - instead I ask her what she wants to do. It's so bizarre - I thought children needed to be entertained all day long until I had 2 more who just go off and play (and get up to all sorts of mischief, but that's another thread....)

im not even going to PRETEND to do this myself, but a list on the fridge to choose from?
My dd isnt good at choosing either, she can stand in front of the book shelf for AGES and i will end up passing her one to read...quite sad really But when shes still there maybe 19 mins later you just think OMG here you go! You will enjoy that.....
Choosing things i in general will limit it to two things or it just turns into an irritated discussion
Give her direction....but i am also trying to teach the theory i NOT being told what to do. And be very enthusiastic when she does use her own brain.

oh and my dd doesnt seem to share the same need to be part of a group/befriend children either. And misses other kids eye contact (or ignores it? doesnt read it?) but has somehow got to year 5 ok
she is VERY good at manipulating play situations to how she wants things to go...

yep which is fine fine fine coming from folk who dont have a child like this...i also have a other dd who is nowhere as draining as this.
which is why i came on the thread so that KTNoo wasnt being jumped on all by herself, as i could see thats where the thread was going.
Its all very well saying my children are perfect and loving and beautiful and well balanced and socially blended and all that crap, but lifes NOT like that.
I love my dd, for who she is, but the truth of the matter is she IS harder work than my other dd/other kids I know. I also know similar kids who are JUST as draining/even more so.
They are still nice kids. They just arent EASY.
And if you cant say so on MN where can you?

Have you tried giving her the structure she seems to crave?

I think I may have BEEN this child. Very annoying, bossy, fake and intelligent. As I have grown older I have realised that that is OK, I am not "hiding" behind anything I really AM bossy and annoying and not insecure at all!

I still get very annoyed when things are not done the way I want them done (but obviously have learned to keep my mouth shut sometimes!). I am also very manipulative, but I have made that work to my advantage in life, I find out what makes people tick/which buttons to press and often use it to get my way, I have just developed tools to make other people happy at the same time.

Nothing makes me happier than clear "rules" for a situation whether I provide the rules or whether they are provided by someone else. I find it much much easier to relax and enjoy myself.

For instance we travel a lot, I plan a 5 day trip for months before hand, I need to know which planes, which buses, trains, where to get taxis, I study the layout of cities, book accommodation. Only when I have enough information can I relax and be "spontaneous" i.e. I can change my plans because I already have about 50 different plans mapped out anyway.

I used to bump up against my mother an awful lot of the time and in hindsight I was as annoying as all hell! Probably still am, but DH is my complete opposite, i.e. leaves everything to the last minute and will quite happily live in chaos, we fit together very well because between us we are a normal person!

I don't think Charliecat comes across as rejecting at all; she is describing a very genuine problem that her daughter has. Of course you get worried and frustrated as a parent; it's because you care about your child and you can see what difficulties their way of being might lead them into.

Would I be rejecting my dd if I pointed out that she can't walk? Or that my (also hypermobile) ds eats like a pig and still can't use a fork properly at age 7? It's a fact- do I have to pretend it's not happening? Of course, it would be nice if we all had perfect children, but I thought MN was about lending support when things aren't perfect.

As I read Charlie's post, I seemed to recognise a child I knew when I myself was a child, and I felt it was good to come back and read about her from the point of view of someone who loves her and sees her as a person. It's so easy to dismiss somebody who has this type of problem.

I also found the OPs posts very hopeful. They do indeed suggest (if you don't mind my saying so, KTNoo) that there is some sort of genetic trait in your family that makes it less easy for you to click into easy interaction with others- but they also very strongly suggest that this is something that can be overcome with maturity. Which is good.

havent has time to read all posts, but what you decribe is similar to a friends dc.

That child was seen by specialists, and the concerns were noted by teachers, and said child has a very mild form of aspergers.

My DD1 (now 11) was similar (but not so extreme maybe): she was v smart, bookish and shy which mean that rather than walk around at lunchtime chatting, she would just read a book. She was also v. uncor-ordinated which meant she was e geeky kid to the others: loved books, didn't do small talk and absolutely didn't do sports. Over time things have changed a lot as she has matured and teachers have helped bring her out of herself. Also, other kids now enjoy reading more so they can talk about books, her co-ordination is better so she can join in sports.

Love her for who she is and keep rerinforcing "nice" behaviour (ie not shouting at brother's choice of ride!) Speak to teachers and watch her mature: she'll change over the next 2 years as will her contemporaries

Just typed a long post then my connection failed so here goes again....

Thanks for all the support and suggestions. Didn't have time to read it all until just now.

Well me and dd had our lunch and it was lovely - I think she genuinely enjoyed it. I managed to ignore some strange comments and silly voices.

We had a small blip later when I got a bit irritated. We were all at the toy shop so dd and ds could choose bday presents from the gps (both bdays next month and gps won't see them then). They both chose something - fine - then dd pointed out that her present cost twice as much as the toy ds chose (he had no idea and was quite happy with what he picked). I explained to her quietly and kindly that it didn't matter as long as they both got something they wanted, but she just kept on and on, louder and louder, until ds started to suspect he was being done. She put on this weird face and voice, as if she knew she should just leave it but couldn't for some reason.

I know this has all been quite negative but I do love her for who she is, I just want to help her to relax and enjoy life instead of creating problems over things she doesn't need to worry about. This week we've also been at the theatre - it was interesting that ds loved it (it was a very imaginitive play we saw with lots of props that you were supposed to imagine were other things) but dd couldn't seem to get into it at all. She kept asking me why everyone was laughing and I felt so sad for her that she couldn't seem to achieve the "flow" needed to enjoy the experience.

morloth you sound similar to me. My dh is also very chaotic and goes with the flow. Funnily enough dd's need for structure and routine annoys him more than me - he's always trying to stretch her in small ways like crossing the road in a different place!

as an eldest child i think it's very, very, very important that things are FAIR. or it was to me at any rate, to the extent that even as a late teen i'd calculate whether my parents could afford x or y for all four of us at a time. so i never even asked to go on school trips, for example, because i couldn't have borne the unfairness of me getting something that the others didn't.

again, a pretty geeky eldest daughter, but tbh i do feel that as the eldest you are sent very conflicting messages. things have to be fair amongst you all is non-negotiable, surely? well, my parents told me that it was negotiable and i could go on school trips but to me it was very black and white.

so i think what i'm saying is... why didn't you just say 'oh yes, you're right, perhaps that isn't fair, why don't you help ds choose something else he'll like too?' if she was being a horror she'd NOT have mentioned it, don't you see? it did matter to her about the diddle going on, and to ds once he realised, couldn't it just be that she was protecting his rights from you, who wasn't. i think you're seeing that incident through rose-coloured adult eyes, tbh.