Motherhood, Feminism, Econony - discuss!

[kneedeepinthedirtylaundry]

Wrote this to a friend today (poor woman!). What do you all think of this issue?

"Also part of this issue is economy. I understand what you said in your text about breastfeeding, mothering, etc, being part of what has traditionally kept women at home, and therefore, away from economic independence ? forced to rely on men to survive, and therefore, motherhood itself can be seen as a misogynistic institution, as deeply anti-feminist, as it denies women the freedom they should have as a right.

But for many years now, long before I became a mother incidentally, I have had a growing feeling that this feminist attitude is immature, because it denies women the freedom to be mothers, which is OUR BILOGICAL DESTINY, so not something we should deny if we don?t want to. It?s like saying a person who has an inborn artistic talent, and really wants to paint, must work at tescos! Most women want to be mothers, are compelled to experience motherhood. I?m not saying that they all should, just that most women do want this. Those that do should be able to fulfill their biological destiny responsibly, but they do not have the freedom to be able to do so without a man (or at least a lesbian money-earning partner!) because of the MALE-BIASED system of economy in which we live.

Women should be able to survive AND raise their children. In an economic system, they cannot do so independently. The system is anti-female, and ?feminists? that devalue NATURAL FEMALE ATTRIBUTES because of these constraints of the system (encourage women to be independent workers rather than dependant mothers), even if they do so in the name of economic independence are, in my humble opinion, misguided, because they are colluding with an inherently anti-female system by trying to work within it. Its like asking black people to work within and accept a system which is set up for whites, and in which their natural state (the colour of their skin) puts them at a disadvantage. We would never expect black people to accept those terms (or think that it would be non-rascist to do so), yet we expect mothers to accept having to work within a system that is stacked up against them. How can you care for a sick child when your boss will think you are shit for not being at the office? How can you breastfeed a 3-year-old if you want to, but your boss wants to know why you can?t go for a week-long business trip once a month. In this situation, no boss would favour a female mother employee over a male, even if she were better at her job, because her role as mother would cost the company some of its profit.

ALL OF THAT is anti-feminist in my thinking.

I don?t think all women want to or should be mothers, just that the ones that don?t generally have it easier in terms of (economic) survival than those that do, and this is wrong. Also, all that immature 1960s feminism, while it made great strides for women, has greatly served to devalue the role of mother IN WOMEN?S EYES AS WELL AS MEN?S, and that, to me, is deeply misogynistic, given our physiology and natural desire in most cases to have children."

Wonderstuff, your frustration and anger is expressing my feelings exactly.

Things haven't changed because people like us are a minority in a majority that wants to conform to the norm, whatever that is (we are a pack animal, after all).

And what we are all being offered as the thing to conform to is consumer culture, with all the social/mental health pitfalls that go with it. But hey, at least the economy is still growing. Well, not right now it isn't.

You are right, but it can't be just you me and waffle that feel like this, i accept i am in the minority, but why is it such a silent minority? why 100's of mags to cater for the celeb obsessed but not one for women proud to call themselves feminists? Not enough to flog to us??

What about men?

Someone, somewhere has forgotten about them.

The current choice is either
a) father works, mother works, child to nursery
or
b) father works, mother stays at home

If anyone had the guts to give real support to men wanting to care for their children, the options would be so much nicer for all.

I didn't spend 5 years at university to spend my life at the kitchen sink, but then I didn't have a child to only see her for an hour a day either.

The only future I want to know about is one in which both parents work a bit and care a bit.

That would be the ideal, those choices are crap for both parents imo, but part-time work is poorly paid and low status, hence few men are interested, for most couples a is the only option and its crap. I currently feel i have to choose between continuing to bf and find a job and i am angry that i have to make that choice. I believe that feminism is about equality, equality for both sexes, but currently society doesn't support that

very interesting thread everyone. I definately have other mum friends who have kids and feel let down my the choices that they are then left with. I have gone back to work 3 days a week, and despite working in a very female orientated company it was very difficult to get part-time and I am made to feel very lucky that I have been given this oportunity. There is definately resentment and a feeling that my 2 days not at work are 'days off'. These 2 days are spent doing the most important job - looking after my child and doing my utmost to ensure she grows up into a happy and well adjusted child - surely this is the biggest service I can do for society? Yes bringing up kids is completely undervalued.

I do want to work and enjoy having a good balance of time at work and time with my dd, but I really think that society's whole slant on working mums needs to be addressed. Most companies make it very hard for women to go back part time, we have to fight like mad for the right and then are made to feel constantly guilty that we are not putting in the same hours as full timers.

Yeah, that is what I might by 'real support' for men - not the ability to find a crap part-time job, but to do a satisfying job that allows that flexibility.

The government claims they are desperate to stop so many marriages breaking down, but it seems so obvious to me that when so many men spend only half an hour a day with their children (from birth), there is such potential for them not to form a decent bond.

You are right to be angry about not being able to continue BF and work, particularly when policy is pushing both of these as ideals.

Has anyone actually gone the route of expressing at work? I thought about it for about half a second, but wouldn't have been possible in my office, as I imagine in many.

I teach and so completly impossible to express, partic. since going to be doing supply, what i want is a job where i can bring child to well resourced on site creche and have breaks to bf, asking a lot? Why can't society support motherhood this way. laugs why is it for men we need fulfilling part time work? why the hell should women be expected to put up with it but not men??

Oh no, I didn't mean in shouldn't be the case for women at all. I was responding to your comment "part-time work is poorly paid and low status, hence few men are interested", but of course I think the same goes for both sexes.

Personally, I think 'parenthood', rather than 'motherhood', is the key. Currently women have more options (most of them poor ones with too many compromises) than men do. It would be better for us all if men's rights in this area were improved.

When DS was 6 months I went back to work 3 days per week, until he was 1.5 years and for that year I expressed at work, and I enjoyed it. I only did it once a day, at lunchtime. I had a good, private spot to do it in (clean, comfortable room with a lock on the door), and enjoyed spending the whole hour eating my sarnies, reading my paper and relaxing once the expressing was over with. I managed to get about 7 or 8 ounces out each time, which at that time was about one feed. It made me happy that I could at least avoid him having one full formula feed during my absence (I'd been stockpiling my breastmilk in the freezer but it ran out after a month of returning to work and he took his first formula then). I stored my Avent bottle in the door of the fridge in the kitchen at work! I didn't make any attempts to hide its contents. No one said anything about it.

In a system that relies on profit to sustain itself, no one's rights can be upheld, despite what governments say. They fall by the wayside for the cause of profit.

But surely if men really wanted these choices, given that we are in a very male dominated society they would get them, men can currently take the last 3 months of maternity leave but I imagine the uptake is very poor, the reality is that its women who compromise on career to bring up baby or compromise on bringing up baby to save career. There is nothing to stop men doing most childcare after 12months, but they don't do it do they? That is why its a feminist issue. I personally think that society needs to change so it's main focus is family rather than work, but I don't for a minute imagine it will happen in my lifetime, men control society and men go out to work, women look after family and put up with second class status, I may have more choices than dh, but I am unhappy about them

this is a very interesting thread.

I've been feeling for some time that capitalism as co-opted the bits of feminism that suits it then re-packaged feminism and presented it back to us minus all the bits that aren't about paid work and spending.

If feminism is reduced to enabling women to do what men have always done so long as they behave like men it's not liberating, it's just another trap. I always thought feminism was about challenging the rules of the game rather than simply begging to be allowed to join in.

I'd hoped things would be better by now. I look at the culture my daughter is growing up in - bombarded with images of pink fluffiness so that she will become convinced she has 'chosen' to want to dress in a certain way, and that this choice is 'empowering' - and I feel things are getting worse.

Totally agree millie

poor people are screwed - feminism is minor politics for the female middle classes.

you are not less screwed as a poor man than you are as a poor woman - your just screwed.

Why should the men be the ones in the money-making positions though?

screwed in what way, custardo? please elaborate, if you are so inclined. D'you mean no choices about work/brining money in?

Actually, as a poor person, I'm not sure I'm that screwed (maybe I'm just optimistic).

For example, when I went from 5 days a week to 4, I lost less than 100 pounds a month. That's bearable. Many parents on higher wages couldn't make that cut.

We live in an area where house prices are low, so we're not total slaves to our mortgage.

We didn't have that much to live up to, so making the recent change from two wages to one wasn't that harsh.

I know a few families locally where both parents work part time and think this is a great idea, but maybe it's only possible if you're poor?

Custado - I don't agree that feminism is minor politics for the female middle class. Poverty is heavily gendered. Women are much more likely to be poor than men at all ages and at all stages of life. The surest route to poverty in old age is to be a woman, have children, and look after them yourself.

Do you think violence against women is 'minor politics'? What about rape? While these are issues for all women everywhere I would argue that they are harder for poor women to escape - lack of money reduces your choices. In large parts of the world where girls are denied an education becuase the family can only afford to educate some children and give priority to boys is that something that is only of interest to the female middle class?

I think feminism is more important to poor women, at least I have some choices albeit not the ones I want, actually think men benefit from feminism too

Oh yes, how i despise that 'Because you're worth it' crap.

Agree with millie others who see capitalism as having derailed feminism in some sense. I think we have come to accept as normal a really quite extreme form of capitalism, in which questions of value: "is it any good", "is it right" or "does it work", are always secondary to "is it profitable?". There has been an increasingly prevalent belief that if you let the market do its work, society will take care of itself.

What is worse, this way of thinking is too often justified on the grounds of being democratic, ie letting the market operate freely is the way to ensure the people get what they want through the law of supply and demand. So if the Sun sells millions of copies every day, it must mean that people want to see naked women on page 3. If you don't like it you're being elitist.

In this world it makes absolute sense for a young, ambitious but educationally limited woman like Katie Price to have her breasts surgically enlarged to comic proportions in order to capitalise on her assets, gain a unique selling point, and make untold sums of money. It makes almost as much sense for other young women to hail her as a role model.

One of the most noticeable things about poor areas is how little evidence of feminism there is. In many ways, things are as they ever were (for better or worse).

Even if you see it as a battle already won or 'minor politics for the middle classes', maybe it is your duty to keep chipping away for those who have little power themselves.

Custy, there are more women living in poverty than men. It sucks, whatever your gender, but it is more likely to happen to you if you are female. One of the great failures of the labour movement was that it didn't entirely embrace feminism IMO.

I thought it was interesting that Tata, the Indian supercompany bought Jaguar. We cannot afford to make even a luxury car in our own country profitably, because of annoying little things like minimum wage, pension schemes, as well as high overheads. So a company in a country that can pay it's workers shit-loads less can make those cars instead, and sell them at the same price, and hey presto, there's the profit back.

What happens when labour laws hit the fast-developing economies of India and China, who are being pressurised by their trading partners to buck up their act. Who will then provide the cheap labour that makes the economy actually work?

You are right IB capitalism just doesn't work for much of society, Katie Price makes me so sad, she gets so much exposure presumably because she sells papers, I wonder if anyone printed stuff about non-seleb +ve women it would get sales??