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Motherhood, Feminism, Econony - discuss!

143 replies

kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 15:35

Wrote this to a friend today (poor woman!). What do you all think of this issue?

"Also part of this issue is economy. I understand what you said in your text about breastfeeding, mothering, etc, being part of what has traditionally kept women at home, and therefore, away from economic independence ? forced to rely on men to survive, and therefore, motherhood itself can be seen as a misogynistic institution, as deeply anti-feminist, as it denies women the freedom they should have as a right.

But for many years now, long before I became a mother incidentally, I have had a growing feeling that this feminist attitude is immature, because it denies women the freedom to be mothers, which is OUR BILOGICAL DESTINY, so not something we should deny if we don?t want to. It?s like saying a person who has an inborn artistic talent, and really wants to paint, must work at tescos! Most women want to be mothers, are compelled to experience motherhood. I?m not saying that they all should, just that most women do want this. Those that do should be able to fulfill their biological destiny responsibly, but they do not have the freedom to be able to do so without a man (or at least a lesbian money-earning partner!) because of the MALE-BIASED system of economy in which we live.

Women should be able to survive AND raise their children. In an economic system, they cannot do so independently. The system is anti-female, and ?feminists? that devalue NATURAL FEMALE ATTRIBUTES because of these constraints of the system (encourage women to be independent workers rather than dependant mothers), even if they do so in the name of economic independence are, in my humble opinion, misguided, because they are colluding with an inherently anti-female system by trying to work within it. Its like asking black people to work within and accept a system which is set up for whites, and in which their natural state (the colour of their skin) puts them at a disadvantage. We would never expect black people to accept those terms (or think that it would be non-rascist to do so), yet we expect mothers to accept having to work within a system that is stacked up against them. How can you care for a sick child when your boss will think you are shit for not being at the office? How can you breastfeed a 3-year-old if you want to, but your boss wants to know why you can?t go for a week-long business trip once a month. In this situation, no boss would favour a female mother employee over a male, even if she were better at her job, because her role as mother would cost the company some of its profit.

ALL OF THAT is anti-feminist in my thinking.

I don?t think all women want to or should be mothers, just that the ones that don?t generally have it easier in terms of (economic) survival than those that do, and this is wrong. Also, all that immature 1960s feminism, while it made great strides for women, has greatly served to devalue the role of mother IN WOMEN?S EYES AS WELL AS MEN?S, and that, to me, is deeply misogynistic, given our physiology and natural desire in most cases to have children."

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waffletrees · 30/04/2008 17:39

Should say "off" and not "odd".

Pennypops · 30/04/2008 17:41

Yes I have to leave the office but will be checking later to see how this one's progressed!

kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 17:41

wonderstuff, what a bummer.

I had also hoped the world would have moved on by now.

But the sad fact is this thread might have had even more interest if it had been entitled "new shoes, britney's shit mothering, jordan's new boob job - discuss".

I don't mean that women are crap - all of us, men and women, are crap because we have been busy little consumers all this time...

No, socialism doesn't do it either. What is a subsistence economy?

OP posts:

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

wonderstuff · 30/04/2008 17:44

Post-feminism is a problem, the bridget jones generation think they have it all, but really once you have kids its crap. I know 'Slummy mummy' is comedy, but it raises interesting points, the rich sahm can have the yummy mummy lifestyle we are all supposed to aspire to but for most of us motherhood is the hardest job in the world and we become wrthless in the eyes of society, but where do we voice our dismay? You are right about the media waffles, constant opinion on what mothers are getting wrong, can't remember ever reading about what could be done to imprve our situation

wonderstuff · 30/04/2008 17:52

Sorry subsistance? spelling not a strong point, I mean working to just fulfil needs, eg the women in the fields in Bangladesh, pre-industrial economy i guess, everything worked around the family, but where do schools and hospitals figure in that model? When I was younger I actually believed that I would be living in a commune/collective by the time I had children, small scale socialism on eco-friendly principles, yet here I am in my box

kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 17:59

"living in a commune/collective by the time I had children, small scale socialism on eco-friendly principles"

Could we achieve this (along with moon missions and regerating ears on the backs of rats)

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wonderstuff · 30/04/2008 18:05

I'm sure we could IF there was a will.. would it still work once the children had left? Are most people happy in there boxes? Would it suit men? We even planned it at college, now we all have children, one family in sussex, another in Edinburgh, me in Hampshire, just not realistic, i was such an idealist

kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 18:06

I cant spell either. I meant what's the difference between a subsistence economy and just subsistence?

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wonderstuff · 30/04/2008 18:08

Feminism just doesn't seem to have a voice outside of academia, even there its not a loud voice, i love my dd and dh, but I expected more

kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 18:09

How about families close together, wonderstuff, sharing as much of the work, but maintaining some privacy?

Thank god for idealists. We'd be in the dark ages without them.

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wonderstuff · 30/04/2008 18:12

Not sure on that one? choice?'economy' assumes a regional state, subsistance refers to individual???

kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 18:13

yes, you're right about feminism being too quite. As waffles said, empowerment in popular culture means the right to have a boob job, to pole dance, to give a man a bj in front of 100 people at a party...

I've met women that have told me they believe women are equal to men, but they wouldn't call themselves feminists (presumably because men wouldn't like them!).

This is depressing stuff, but these conversations are important. I'm so glad to know other women think about these things. I don't meet them. Every time I've raised this kind of thing with other mums, me and DS don't get invited out to play again! funny in a way, but also especially as I don't want DS to miss out cos his mum doesn't want to talk about the benefits of a good eye cream over mummy coffee.

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wonderstuff · 30/04/2008 18:15

Would be great, but you would have to live near to people who shared your values, I have a feeling that not many families would be up for it, how would you start the conversation?

wonderstuff · 30/04/2008 18:19

I know what you mean, i get so bored discussing sllep patterns and puree recipies, people get intimidated if you mention politics, even degree educated former career women, the pressure to conform is overwhelming. I feel lie people think i'm showing off if i start to discuss current affairs

kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 18:19

I've heard of families that have grouped together to live in this way. A few weeks ago, I read an article in the gardening section of Guardian magazine about a company that sell "real" (non-engineered) seeds for veggies. They live in this communal kind of way. I've heard of others.

People in the world are risking their financial independence to come together with other families to live in this way. In the West. Would really like to know more about this movement. Don't even know what it's called. Anyone?

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kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 18:21

" feel lie people think i'm showing off if i start to discuss current affairs"

Yes! Like "I know about this, aren't I clever" rather than "I care about this".

dullsville.

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mumofhelen · 30/04/2008 18:23

I've only read the first paragraph of the OP. Jesus wept, you e-mailed that to a friend. Why? This must be for some course or similar.

wonderstuff · 30/04/2008 18:24

Thank god for the web, i'm not utterly alone. I suspect that many are scared to voice opinion, we made the choice to be mothers right?

wonderstuff · 30/04/2008 18:25

Why must it be for a course? Why can't we just have discussions about the state of the world?

waffletrees · 30/04/2008 18:28

Yes, I keep it very quiet that I don't read the Sun or Closer magazine. The great thing about MN is you get to "meet" like minded people. I honestly don't see myself as being that clever but constantly feel like I am dumbing down when I speak to other people.

50 years ago it was standard to live near your mum, sisters, aunties. There was an instant support group. I just get the feeling that women have stopped supporting each other. This celebrity culture is just fueling negativism and it can't be healthy.

wonderstuff · 30/04/2008 18:34

Do you think that the combination of the media and capitalism puts us in competition which isn't helpful for supporting families?

kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 18:34

Mumofhelen, my friend and I were having a discussion about feminism and motherhood. We had slightly different viewpoints and I wanted to elaborate on mine so she could understand clearly what I meant. It seems odd to you that I did this. Why? Don't you ever discuss important issues with your friends?

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kneedeepinthedirtylaundry · 30/04/2008 18:35

wonderstuff - definately.

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waffletrees · 30/04/2008 18:48

Wonderstuff - yes the media make alot of money out of women being nasty to each other. Put a picture of Britney on the front and say she is a shit mum and sales go through the roof. There is no incentive for change and women who do not have children seem happy enough. Once you become a mum, however, if you complain about anything you practically have it screamed at you that you are lucky to have children.

wonderstuff · 30/04/2008 18:57

Why aren't more people calling for change though? Yes I'm lucky to have my dd, and yes I made the choice to have her, but why can't I want better for myself, why can't I be a mum and have conversations like this in real life, why are there not more role models for me, why is bloody Jordan held up as supermum?

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