Motherhood, Feminism, Econony - discuss!

[kneedeepinthedirtylaundry]

Wrote this to a friend today (poor woman!). What do you all think of this issue?

"Also part of this issue is economy. I understand what you said in your text about breastfeeding, mothering, etc, being part of what has traditionally kept women at home, and therefore, away from economic independence ? forced to rely on men to survive, and therefore, motherhood itself can be seen as a misogynistic institution, as deeply anti-feminist, as it denies women the freedom they should have as a right.

But for many years now, long before I became a mother incidentally, I have had a growing feeling that this feminist attitude is immature, because it denies women the freedom to be mothers, which is OUR BILOGICAL DESTINY, so not something we should deny if we don?t want to. It?s like saying a person who has an inborn artistic talent, and really wants to paint, must work at tescos! Most women want to be mothers, are compelled to experience motherhood. I?m not saying that they all should, just that most women do want this. Those that do should be able to fulfill their biological destiny responsibly, but they do not have the freedom to be able to do so without a man (or at least a lesbian money-earning partner!) because of the MALE-BIASED system of economy in which we live.

Women should be able to survive AND raise their children. In an economic system, they cannot do so independently. The system is anti-female, and ?feminists? that devalue NATURAL FEMALE ATTRIBUTES because of these constraints of the system (encourage women to be independent workers rather than dependant mothers), even if they do so in the name of economic independence are, in my humble opinion, misguided, because they are colluding with an inherently anti-female system by trying to work within it. Its like asking black people to work within and accept a system which is set up for whites, and in which their natural state (the colour of their skin) puts them at a disadvantage. We would never expect black people to accept those terms (or think that it would be non-rascist to do so), yet we expect mothers to accept having to work within a system that is stacked up against them. How can you care for a sick child when your boss will think you are shit for not being at the office? How can you breastfeed a 3-year-old if you want to, but your boss wants to know why you can?t go for a week-long business trip once a month. In this situation, no boss would favour a female mother employee over a male, even if she were better at her job, because her role as mother would cost the company some of its profit.

ALL OF THAT is anti-feminist in my thinking.

I don?t think all women want to or should be mothers, just that the ones that don?t generally have it easier in terms of (economic) survival than those that do, and this is wrong. Also, all that immature 1960s feminism, while it made great strides for women, has greatly served to devalue the role of mother IN WOMEN?S EYES AS WELL AS MEN?S, and that, to me, is deeply misogynistic, given our physiology and natural desire in most cases to have children."

Kneedeep, congratulations for continuing to bf your chilren as long as you bloody well feel comfortable. Not enough support for breastfeeding in my opinion!

The capitalism thing is that womens' libbers demanded the right to work and to have equal pay. But capitalism has taken that on so we don't have much choice about working, by and large, but still don't actually get equal pay - the pay gap is bloody stubborn and is not accounted for by maternity leave/ child-rearing.

These days you need two incomes to afford a mortgage, when I was little you only needed one.

Biological determinism worries me - not all women are good or bad at the same things. The differences between individuals cannot be predicted by gender. I'm much less alike women X than man Y.

The 'ooh, it's just like animals, females rear the brood while males go out and fight' is so reductionist it is worthless in terms of making decisions or judgements about human beings.

edam, I see your point. The pay gap is remarkably stubborn, given how much time its had to close.

I don't think all women are good at the same things, or all men for that matter. As scary teacher said, we have to embrace the differences, but on an individual level as well, not just a gender-based level.

Women have given the world some of the greatest of achievements since Ms Pankhurst (and before, of course ? but so much more widely have women contributed to the world beyond the domestic sphere in recent years, I am guessing). We have a very valuable role to play, as do men, of course, in this.

BUT, why can't a woman simply raise a child without needing money, when she is able to get the means for her and her child's survival in other ways that she can do with her child around. We are animals. Female animals take an active role in hunting for food, etc. But we are not able to be that independent because of money. We can't take our kids to the office with us.

TeeBee. thankyou

Moondog, what you said made me wonder about all the women in "developing" countries that are out in the fields the day after the baby is born with the baby on their back. Do they feel vulnerable or empowered (albeit exhausted)? I have no idea what this must be like for them.

Quite Knee.
(My dh is working with 18 000 women classified as 'ultra poor' in Bangladesh at present.i shall ask him to conduct a survey!)

My guess is that the notional woman in Banglasdesh feels neither empowered nor vulnerable; her situation is just exactly as she would expect it to be. Unless she has a level of education that is unusual for a woman in poverty, she's probably not aware that women in other countries have other choices. This is just a guess though.

Mmm. Have to say I'm very glad I can go to the office, without children, rather than having to scrabble around hunter-gathering with them in tow. I see that as a very positive change.

Actually I know quite a lot of families which survive quite well on one not particularly huge income, they tend to live in the way which was more common in the 70's when one earner families were more prevalent - fewer cars, fewer meals out, fewer expensive holidays.

though I don't live in the South East, maybe it isn't possible there.

I think they are too focussed on surviving day by day to feel either vulnerable or empowered.

However, policywonk, I suspect that more and more of them are aspiring to that life-affirming Gucci handbag, no matter how out of reach.

Moondog, how long do you think it will take him to complete this survey!

Maybe so, knee. As we know, nothing says 'empowerment' quite like a f*ckin ugly handbag that costs more than the national average wage in most developing countries

"I think they are too focussed on surviving day by day to feel either vulnerable or empowered"

But do you not think that a woman, poor or rich, will be feeling something more than just the day-to-day stuff when holding a newborn in her arms?

I dunno. I've read some things that suggest that in contexts in which infant mortality (and mortality full stop) is high, parental feelings are different to those experienced by people who (in the vast majority of cases) confidently expect their children to attain adulthood. However this is obviously a perilous area.

This is all very interesting - at last I have a place for my feminist ramblings. I agree with most of what's been said here. Treating unequal things (men and women) equally leads to an unfair outcome. This isn't an excuse for paying women crap wages or any Alan Sugar stle boardroom interrogations about childcare - it's an invitation to acknowledge that women most often want to have children and care for those children and that treating women like men in the workplace and society in general is massively discriminatory.

Its why I get so bloody angry at all the "well you wanted to be equal" comments. Applying the same rules to women in the workplace as you do to childless men for example will lead to a highly inequitable outcome for the woman. So yes, "special" treatment for women such as maternity leave which seems to be often resented by both men and childless women is absolutely essential in order to attain even a faint chance of equality.

I also agree that motherhood seems to have become utterly devalued in the eyes of both men and women. According to a lot of the media you're only allowed to be a mother now if you are a selfless angel, have no desires of your own, cook like Nigella, run your home perfectly and of course, make sure you stay suitably "yummy". If that isn't misogynistic then I don't know what is.

The whole economic system is run by and for men. Er, any ideas???

I do think the capitalist working system is geared towards men and women that do not have children.

I think that before the Industrial Revolution women were as important as men for the families economic survival. I presume that women looked after DCs; made butter, cheese, preserves etc.; made clothes; fed chickens; milked cows. Basically they could work and look after kids.

When paid work started to leave the home women bacame more dependent on the male pay packet.

Feminism was important but we are now in the situation were women are made to ignore their desire to be with their kids to pay the mortgage.

I don't have the answers but I feel the economic system at present is very unfair to women with children.

Well said pennypops.

Revolution?

Come the revolution all the "because you're worth it" models will be the first against the wall!!!!

"I think that before the Industrial Revolution women were as important as men for the families economic survival. I presume that women looked after DCs; made butter, cheese, preserves etc.; made clothes; fed chickens; milked cows. Basically they could work and look after kids."

We can engineer human beings in test tubes, but this obviously sensible way of living is out of our reach now? What kind of a mess are we in as a race?

When I say sensible, I mean women can work to survive and raise children, with neither suffering.

Personally I'd be crap at making butter.

"Because you're worth it". If there was a slogan to encapsulate many modern ills I think that would have to be it!

I think if I was a poor woman in less developed world I would possibly feel relief that I had survived childbirth and possibly resentment that I didn't have access to family planning?? Naomi Wolf's book 'Misconceptions' takles pregnancy childbirth and motherhood from a feminist view, really interesting read - make a change from 'what to expect' . She makes a good point about the value placed on motherhood is revealed by the fact there are no toilets in playparks! I think that it's not just capitalism but the nuclear family that works against women, in a more communal set up the burden of motherhood could be shared, women with children would be less isolated. I don't know what the answer is, but we have moved some way towards a better environment, eg breast now accepted as best whereas in 50's formula considered superior, how anti-women is that? But feminist backlash seems to have us stuck in this unfair situation that most women seem to have accepted How do we start the revolution? This isn't the situayion I anticipated when i was younger, i thought the world would have moved on by the time i became a mother

Excellent OP and agree with Waffletrees. Years ago 'work' was any important contribution to the family survival, only in recent years has 'work' been primarily outside the home as wage labourers. The bizarre thing about the way things are is that you pay someone to look after your kids (so it is 'work' if someone else does the caring) while you go and do something for someone else. Capitalism would have workers at any cost (and the more there are avaliable the more employers costs and employee condtitions can be reduced). A government report admitted that part time workers are a problem and not as productive. Work work work. I have found much more joy in being with family. I think the government are scared that if they give women the choice to stay home, they will realise that there is more to life than work and not want to do crappy wage labour.

Wonderstuff you are so right about the fact that most women just seem to have accepted it. I get rather irritated when women in their late teens and early twenties seem to define feminism as the right to go out and drink seventeen Bacardi breezers.

There's an assumption that the battle has been won but I don't think its really even started.

Wonderstuff - I think you are so right. Women have acheived alot in the past 30 years regarding equal rights but it seems to be stalling now.

If I was an alien from another planet I would think that women have been divided and conquered. We live isolated lives in our perfect little boxes. And the male dominated media loves whipping up arguments about parenting, whether women work yadda yadda yadda. Basically we cat fight all the time whilst men concetrate on earning more money than us.

Capitalism doesn't have any interest in families, childcare, berevement, illness, all a problem for money making, but what is the alternative? I don't want to live in a subsistance ecnomy, socialism doesn't really embrace family either, or work at all really. and i live in the south east, we can't afford our one bed flat unless i go back to work soon, dd is only 6 months old

How do we start the revolution?

alternative economies? forming new living situation where people can share home-based work?

Somehow, the answer involves overcoming the urgent need for money. Need to minimise the necessity for it (grow own food, pool resources for necessary things like taxes) and SPEND LESS.

Come the revolution I would ban the word empowerment - seems to be used in relation to pole dancing, boob jobs and shampoo. Erm, I think empowerment used to mean a right to education, equal pay, getting a loan withour your DH/dad guaranteeing it.

Anyway, odd to make dinner - living the dream me!!