So Mumsnet jury, would you allow your six year old DD to feel the consequences of her behaviour by not allowing her to go to a birthday party on Saturday?

[LittleBella]

I bought a fabulous book for the boy whose party it is, which I told her she was not allowed to touch as it could get dirty or damaged. Now I know I should have hidden it from her, wrapped it up, kept it out of her reach, etc., but I didn't because I'm not effing Supermum and I can't remember to be permanently competent. Actually that's not strictly true, I did put it up high and she would have had to get a chair to get it down. I also want my DD not to touch things which she has been told not to touch and at 6 years old I am wondering whether it is unreasonable to expect her to leave stuff alone when she has been explicitly told that that item is out of bounds.

Anyway the inevitable happened and she has broken the book. Not only is it broken, a couple of the bits are missing so it can't be fixed. (It's one of those books that you then use to build a castle.) I don't want to buy the child another present, so my inclination is to say to DD that as she no longer has a present to take to the party, she can't go.

Would this be utterly draconian? I have a feeling it would be, but otoh what consequence should she experience for this unfortunate event?

[ingles2]

With due respect MRs R there is a very very big difference between losing a treat and being scared of being punished by mum
I don't think anyone has suggested LB makes a huge great big scary deal of this... a very calm simple, I'm sorry but the book is broken when I asked you not to touch it and therefore we can't go to the party should do it!
To my mind these suggestions of duplicate jewellery boxes are for a much younger child, 3 or 4... not 6.

[ingles2]

No 6 my point is the
If I touch other people stuff!
It's
If I willfully disobey my mums rules
or perhaps we should just ignore the fact that LB cleary told her dd not to touch

[ingles2]

Control Freak???!!!???
there are rules and regulations throughout a childs life for all sorts of reasons.
She is of school age, therefore has to be able to follow rules and regulations in that setting that may be there for her own safety.
I get the distinct impression from LB's posts that actually her biggest problem in this situation is that dd specifically went against her wishes and that at 6 she is old enough to able to understand those wishes.
I think the breaking would be a much smaller problem if LB felt that her dd occasionally respected her wishes. I'm sure LB respects her dd's wishes and tries to meet them and her dd is at an age when she is capable of doing this too. Just as I respect my ds1 wishes when he asks me not to touch his lego Star Wars.

[ingles2]

blimey what a lot of repetition of respect and wishes!
Sorry...
Bedtime me thinks

[Buda]

I have followed this thread but not posted. I have a 6 yr old DS.

If MY DS did this he would not go to the party. He is perfectly able to appreciate the consequences of doing somethign on a Monday and feeling the consequences on the following Saurday. And if not - he should be.

This ia a perfect age to at least teach the philosophy of r4specting another's property.

[JodieG1]

I would let my 6 year old still go. She wouldn't do that anyway but if she did we'd talk about it.

[Janni]

I would say she could only go to the party if she earned the money to buy a new gift and I would come up with a list of jobs she had to do to earn it.

I would make the original present disappear so that it did not forever more remind me of her misdemeanour.

[Rachmumoftwo]

Janni, what a fab idea! I am going to mentally file that one for future use- everyone wins and the lesson still learned.

[Othersideofthechannel]

Ingles "there is a very very big difference between losing a treat and being scared of being punished by mum"

Do you not see losing a treat as a punishment? It's a big treat in question, a birthday party. Children get sooo excited about birthday parties.

No.6, you are explaining this really well but it does seem to me that LB thinks it is important that her daughter respect her rules just because it is what mum said so.

Perhaps she just can't stop herself? I remember being at least 7 and having my hands slapped from time to time for fiddling with stuff while I was chatting to my parents. I wasn't even aware I was fiddling before the slap came and would have been less humiliated if someone had said 'leave the xxxx alone please'.

LB, have you asked your daughter about what might help her stop her curiosity overriding your instructions? My DS is only 5 but sometimes has good ideas for 'self-improvement'.

[mrsruffallo]

I don't understand this - my rules must be followed or else!!!-kind of attitude.
We can trust our children, on the whole, to turn out well without this method of discipline.

[ingles2]

But you see at 6, many children have already started to understand the reasons and consequences...self control is a much harder thing to grasp.
It is never a case (in my house anyway) of "do what I say because I said so" with no explanation or understanding. In LB's case she explained to her dd what the present was and why she shouldn't touch it, but she carried on regardless. What if it had been something that was dangerous? or valuable? If LB's dd is not able to excert some self control at the minute, then other methods or 'rules" need to be put in place for her. I personally think it is placing an awful lot of pressure on her to expect her to resist alone. After all I still can't resist the biscuit barrel
And actually no, I don't think missing a party is that big a deal,..it's missing something nice but not something that impacts on her day to day life. Parties I think have become seriously overdone but that's another thread all together.
I have ds's not dd's and it may be different,..they are pleased about an invitation but not soooo excited!

[Nighbynight]

but ingles, if it had been something dangerous, then you would expect that it would have been behind a locked door. I wouldnt expect a 6 year old to stay away from something that looked fascinating and was dangerous - I dont think anyone would! We would put it where the child really couldn't get hold of it.

Responsibility begins around 7 - that's why formal education begins at 7 in other countries, and why you are allowed to sign your name, have a bank account etc from 7.

You can train a child younger than 7 to obey you - but its like potty training them at 12 months - they can do it, but they dont really understand the whys and wherefores.

I was thinking about crunchies post a couple of days ago, when she said she obeyed her parents because she respected them. I actually dont want my children to respect me in that way. I want them to have solid values, and act accordingly with those. Therefore, they can only do right/wrong when they get to the age of being able to understand it, NOT merely the age to understand that Mummy said No.
(There are a few exceptions to this, eg not eating berries unless I have told them, and not getting into strangers cars. I told them those things when they were much too young to understand why.)

However, generally I dont expect my children to do things they dont understand, so I would have simply hidden teh present and not let a 6 yr old know where it was, because I think that's too young to stay away from it - babyish curiosity is still too strong.

I myself was brought up in the obey-your-parents school of child-rearing. Obeying parents = being a good girl. There was no other definition.

Most of the times when I was punished, I didnt even understand teh reason why I was being punished, but now that I am grown up, I can see it was because I had disobeyed my parents. But at the time, I would have forgotten the instructions, so it all made little sense.
I didnt rebel as a teenager. There was no way to not do what my parents said, and still be a good person. I just ran, as an adult. As I was on my way out, my parents were still telling me what a weak/stupid/bad person I am, because I had gone against their wishes.

I am trying to instil genuine values in my children, and not aiming for them to do things just because I told them to/forbade them from doing them. A necessary part of that, is to expect good behaviour only when the child really understands the reason why they should/shouldnt do stuff.

This is broadly in line with child-rearing in ex-h's country, where small children get away with a lot, but as they get older, they are expected to start behaving well.

[Nighbynight]

ha ha it looks as though obedience/responsibility in older children is the new routine/demand feeding on mumsnet!

[seeker]

But I would expect my children to understand at 6 that people have private property that belongs to them and mustn't be touched without permission. My chidren have some shared posessions that they have to negotiate about and their own things that mustn't be touched without permission. And the same goes for mine and dp's stuff. Some can be used by anyone - some can't.

Littlebella - does your dd have things of her own that her brother isn't allowed to touch? Can he,and you, got into her bedroom without knocking? I wonder whether you need to 'model' some boundaries for the whole family to help her understand. Does that make sense?

[ingles2]

But Nighby OP did put the present away! the dd had to get a chair to reach it!
Well I'm obviously very lucky because I've got a 6 yr old who has fantastic comprehension and understanding. We have an open fire, he know's exactly why he can't go near it, throw anything in it etc etc. Comprehension doesn't automatically develop the minute a dc hits 7!
And why shouldn't a child respect it's parents? Family life is about mutual respect all round, my children respect me and my precious things and in turn I respect them and theirs.
ds2 (the 6 yr old) loves audio cd's, he doesn't like them to be left out of their cases because he understands they get scratched and damaged and are then unplayable. Of course I had to explain this to him first, but he quickly realised cause and effect. I thnk this is what needs to happen in this case. the dd damaged the gift, therefore misses the party. Cause and effect not punishment that is not understood.

[mrsruffallo]

I think that missing the party is too much of a punishment.
I imagine she feels terrible, and that's enough of a consequence for me

[ingles2]

Do you have just the 4.8 dc No. 6?

[MadamePlatypus]

At 36, I am sitting here in a pair of DH's socks, which I know he won't like because I am therefore reducing his pile of available black socks for work. I am doing it because I only have white socks in my drawer which will look stupid with my shoes and it is too hot for tights and I had to leave the house in a hurry this morning. However I think I will get away with it because I can manage the consequences by doing a dark wash tonight. Do you ever stop doing things that other people might not like? I think all that happens is that you manage the consequences better.

Re: the present, as an adult if I broke a present, I would go out and buy a new one, which would mean I would go without something else that I wanted (or as Jani suggested, would have to do some extra work). I wouldn't not go to the party - maybe you could talk over some of the consequences of your daughter's actions, LB, and get her to decide what she wants to do?

(Alternatively, did anybody see the episode of the series on Chinese schools where they made the boy with the holey eraser wear a holey jumper to show him the value of things?...)

[Crunchie]

I think you all think I am a strict mum with HUGE punishments

Firstly Let me explain the 'respect you parent' thing. I did and still do repsect my parents. They did the best they could do, were always there and gave me boundries which they were consistant with.

I am not talking blind obidience I am talking on very very rare occassoins my mum would say 'don't do XYZ' Otherwise she respected me enough to make my oown decisions and consequently my own m,istakes. BUT I was a teenager then.

The way I see it, is that right now it is my way, full stop. They are 7 and 9 and my word is law (if necessary) There are very few times I use this tone, and very few reasons I use it for. AS previously I have said

1. Lying
   
2. deliberate disobeying a direct command (eg DON'T TOUCH etc)
   
   Then by the time they are teenagers they DO understand actions/consequence and therefore they can make informed choices about them. By the time I was a teenager (and this is what I plan with mine) My parents had taught me that all actions have consequences, some may not be immediate, some maybe good and some maybe bad. Therefore they respected me enogh to make my own choices.
   
   All this softly softy stuff is obviously not working, IME toughness once or twice has worked wonders. The 'lying drama' was nearly 6 months ago and they were punished then and still remember why. I have not had to do it again (BTW the punishment was simply one missed party, one missed riding lesson, and one very upset mummy)
   
   Of course kids touch stuff/break stuff by accident - DD1 was swinging off the curtain holdback yesterday and broke it!! BUT she was upset, I mended it, and made her say sorry. JOB DONE. BUT I was not angry as I had not specificaaly said 'do not swing off teh curain holdback' so I had no reason to get cross.my dd was gutted, and really really upset as she knew she had broken something she shouldn't have. So I did do what you all suggest and soothe with cuddles and explainations
   
   The difference here is the OP did say 'Don't Touch' she did hide the book up high. This is NOT a one off thing it is a regular occurence that the OP's DD has no respect for her things. She should get cross, upset and angry as it wil teach her child.
   
   BTW I also think one severe punishment does not lead a child to immunity against it and mean you have to be tougher and tougher. IT TEACHES THEM A DAMN GOOD LESSON!!