So Mumsnet jury, would you allow your six year old DD to feel the consequences of her behaviour by not allowing her to go to a birthday party on Saturday?

[LittleBella]

I bought a fabulous book for the boy whose party it is, which I told her she was not allowed to touch as it could get dirty or damaged. Now I know I should have hidden it from her, wrapped it up, kept it out of her reach, etc., but I didn't because I'm not effing Supermum and I can't remember to be permanently competent. Actually that's not strictly true, I did put it up high and she would have had to get a chair to get it down. I also want my DD not to touch things which she has been told not to touch and at 6 years old I am wondering whether it is unreasonable to expect her to leave stuff alone when she has been explicitly told that that item is out of bounds.

Anyway the inevitable happened and she has broken the book. Not only is it broken, a couple of the bits are missing so it can't be fixed. (It's one of those books that you then use to build a castle.) I don't want to buy the child another present, so my inclination is to say to DD that as she no longer has a present to take to the party, she can't go.

Would this be utterly draconian? I have a feeling it would be, but otoh what consequence should she experience for this unfortunate event?

I would normally go with the chores/pocket money route, but tbh if this is an ongoing issue, then a larger direct consequence, even if a few days delayed, is appropriate and may well have a bigger impact.

However, I would also replace the book and send it to the birthday child separately (and probably not let dd know) by way of apology of not making the party.

Good idea rubberduck. I would certainly send a present to the party by way of apology too.

The problem with not sending her to the party is that the party boy misses out on a guest.

If she doesn't get pocket money, I think you have to make her miss out on something you would have spent money on - like ice creams at the park, swimming - to make the point about money not growing on trees.

I think you have two issues here tbh - replacing the book and sorting out the issue of her ignoring you when you ask her not to touch something.

Have you spoken to her about what she thinks she could do to make it better? (with your guidance of course). She may suggest she does some things to help or gives one of her presents.

Think it makes sense to miss the party this time as a direct consequence tbh - it just depends how much she understands and how much she could control her behaviour iykwim.

You don't have to make Saturday miserable either - just a normal happy day (where she might be a little miffed that she is missing it - where you can remind why).

Can you take away a favourite toy of hers that she really loves and values? Tell her that she only gets it back after the party and only if she is good. Otherwise you will throw it in the dustbin.

I personally wouldn't make my 6 year old miss a party for the reason you state, but I understand that you want to be strict as she has a habit of breaking things.

Can you talk to her about how you could, if you decided to, destroy her special things (you could explain quite graphically how you would do this) and ask her how would she feel if you were that mean a mother?

Hmm I had a chat with her before bed and asked her what she thought she should do to make up for it and how we were going to solve the problem that there is now no present for birthday boy.

She suggested saying sorry and meaning it, and taking one of her brother's toys for him.

I'm with crunchie on this one.

But then I'm a hard case, meeeeee.

I am totally not recommending this, but did anyone read that Noel Streatfield book called Tennis Shoes where the little girl gives the family umbrellas to a pedlar. Her punishment is that her next birthday and Christmas presents have to go to buy one umbrella back on each occasion. As there are 3 kids and 2 adults in the family, it means she gets no Christmas or birthday presents for 2.5 years! those were different times I think!

It is such a dilemma. Part of me thinks I'm being utterly unreasonable and Victorian to even consider it, the other part thinks FFS no wonder she doesn't have any respect for your instructions if you can't bring yourself to apply a logical, proper sanction for persistently bad behaviour. I just wonder whether her tendency to draw on the furniture (thankfully seems to have ceased now)/ break things which she shouldn't have been touching in the first place, is because the sanctions I'm using aren't effective.

Her argument this evening was that I didn't tell her she'd miss the party if she touched the book, if she'd known that she wouldn't have touched it.

Oh well off to bed to sleep on it...

I don't know why the umbrella post prompted that...

Do it

When my twin DDs were 6 and having a birthday party there was a knock at the door and a mum stood there with a present, but explained her DD wouldn't be attending as she had lied. The child was in the car at the end of the drive, looking devastated. My twinnies are 11 now and still remember it, as do I. If it had this much impact on us, what did that little girl feel? It's not a tale I'd want my adult offspring relating against me in later years.

I think if you've already said that's the consequence then you have to stick with it.

Otherwise she'll always know that she can change your mind and get away with bad behaviour...

It's not the consequence as such, it's knowing that you will follow through with whatever you say you will do that is important.

I remember being horrified at the umbrella thing in Tennis Shoes - can't believe they actually did that to Nicky!

Bella - why do you think she does this? And (sorry, not having a go, honestly) but how was she able to have to book for long enough to damage it so badly without anyone noticing - surely by 6 she should be able to play with something like that carefully enough not to break it? Did she sneak it off to her room? (separate issue - if it was so fragile would the birthday boy be able to manage it?)
Does she break things on purpose, or is she one of the experimental/destruction testing type?

Not sue what I'm getting at, but it seems to me that there is more to this than the book, if it's part of a pattern.

I think this is over-punishment. how are you going to bring up confident children, if you react like this when they disobey you?

Littlebella, you seem to be wanting a reasoned debate with your DD. BUT she pesists in bad behaviour. You should not HAVE to say - if you touch this book you will not go to the party, it was engh to say - DO NOT TOUCH THIS BOOK. She wilfully disobeyed a direct order.

I cannot understand those on this thread say 'ah she is only 6, saturday is a long time away' That child is clever enough to find the gaping hole in your argument and use it!!! She is certainly clever enough to know that on Saturday she is not going to the party because of what she did.

Her suggestion of taking one of her brother toys is also a clever answer.

TBH I would get tough, really tough. Once or twice is enough I can assure you. Seriously I only have to say to my kids 'DO NOT LIE TO ME. YOU KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN' to get tehtruth about things. Also I give MASSIVE praise when they do tell me the truth, even though they are afraid they will get in trouble (eg after breaking something by accident) They learnt very quickly that it is the LIE I hate, even more than the behaviour, not that the behaviour was acceptable in teh firstplace (they both had additional punishment for that)

IMHO the punishment needs to fit the crime, your DD has destroyed a present you were going to give, therefore no party. What is the point of no TV? Chores fine, but again she is not losing out by doing chores IYKWIM

IMHO I would say, 'OK you didn't realise THIS time you wouldn't go if you destroyed the book, but you do know for next time now, don't you'!!

I know I sound harsh and I have been lucky I have never had a wifully descructive child - like I said ONE OCCASSION Of damaging something of mine deliberately was enough!!! Of course they have accidents, but this was no accient, you put the book up high, you told her not to touch.

(as an side I also went mad when DH ate my chocolate reindeer at christmas!! I was saving it for desparate times, I hadn't even unwrapped it!' But he took it, unwrapped it and ate it!!. My kids were so upset with him as he had taken something of mummys without asking!!! He had to go out and buy me 2 BIG Lindt bunnies to make up for it!! - one of which is tempting him inthe fridge still )

You are the parent here, so what if the punishment is draconian, you are not exactly beating your child for a minor indescrtion, you are teaching her ina totally reasonable way that there are consequences to actions and she knows that she shouldn't HAVE to be told. Use the school analogy, if she had taken something of her friends/teachers without asking and then damaged it - what would she expect!!!

Icouldn't go through with it TBH. I;d have to find a way for DD to be able to earn back her right to go to the party.

TBH I prefer sanctions that are dne there and then, and then we move on and start afresh.

Sounds a bit nuts to me. Why didn't you show her the book/present when you bought it, and let her see what she was giving and talk about whether she thinks he will like it, and then say 'well, now we'll put it somewhere safe shall we?'

Though hindsight is a wonderful thing.

If you've already said she's not going to the party, then I suppose she shouldn't. But I think it's harsh. I like the doing chores during the week option, to save the money to buy another book. It doesn't matter if she enjoys doing them - that's a good thing. The she's got to suffer line is too much.

Smacking produces such hysteria on mumsnet, and yet someone can suggest a draconian punishment and be told it's ok, as long as it isn't smacking

(I don't think that smacking would have been the solution here, but the punishment suggested is very aggressive, imo)

nighbynight, my kids are perfectly confident, happy balanced children - however there are SOME issues that I feel really strongly about.

1. My children do not lie, it is better to tell the truth and get in trouble than to lie. (OK they probably do lie, but if I catch them they know this is a major thing for me)

2. My children do not deliberatly disobey me, if I have categoricaly said - DON'T TOUCH THIS, DON'T do that, and they do...again BIG nono.

3. otherwise my kids do what they want within reason, they never are stopped doing things, they can play with anything, borrow anything provided they ask. I have absolutely no issues with any of that. But lying and deliberate disobidience - no way.

well crunchie, you just admitted that when your dh had the temerity to eat YOUR chocolate, he had to go out and buy double the amount he had eaten...sorry but I find that a bit mad too.
we clearly have very different philosophies.

I am puzzled how things keep getting destroyed though. At six yes they might be be unable to resist a fiddle with something they've been told to leave alone but surely not destroy something. Unless the things are very delicate that is.

The pocket money concept at six is meaningless to mine atm.

It's not an aggressive punishment to suggest that your actions have consequences.

It's not aggressive to suggest that you should be consistent - if you say that X will happen if they do Y then you should follow through - sure, take a look at WHAT X is, but after the event is too late to do that.

If your child knows that you will always go back on what you say will happen if they do something wrong then they will USE that over and over again. Your threats become utterly meaningless. And more importantly, they don't feel any more comfortable or happy for not having any boundaries for their behaviour.

A one off, fine, then this is probably OTT. But given that she's repeatedly been destructive, then a line does have to be drawn. And given that the line HAS been drawn, you can't then just rub it out and pretend it wasn't there without some very serious consequences of your own.

can someone explain why this is a draconian punishment??

Child deliberately takes a book that she has been TOLD not to touch - and even has to chilmb on a chair to get it - eg no acident. She does this regularly, and is bright enough to come up with other solutions and even to say 'WELL if you told me that I wouldn't go to the party, I wouldn't have touched the book!!' Suely it is enough at 6 to say DON't TOUCH. She is not a 2 or 3 year old

I cannt be the only one that thinks you lot are too scared of your own children or blaming yourself - oh well in hindsight I should have showed her it and old her I was putting it away safely' She did put it away safely - up high out of reach. WHY can our childrn never be blamed for anything??

LB I know it is just me, but you have a bright little girl there who is using all her intelligence to make you feel guilty and to come up with other ideas for you. That is brilliant and should be applauded, BUT you have obviously given strong enough sanctions previously if she has done this before. ALl I am saying is oone tough sanction and you should be able to leave anything you like around wherever you like.

The punishment is worse than the "crime" (of curiosity and thoughtlessness) though.