Desperate for some advice on how to deal with awful 4 yo DS and his behaviour

[rosyandjam]

Sorry this is a little long but I'd be very grateful if anyone could help..

My DS has just started school, he will be 5 in November.
He is totally ruining home life right now, DH seems totally withdrawn and like he's given up, and I just end up shouting every day multiple times because I have tried every other avenue to improve his behaviour but nothing is helping him.

He has always been a real handful for us but right now he is horrendous. He argues with everything we say, if I said the sky is blue he would say "no it isn't!" In a really unpleasant voice. He has serious jealousy issues with his young sister (who is the words easiest child and I think that makes him seem even worse), he is frantic and can't sit still, he doesn't stop talking. Ever. He can't speak quietly. He won't sit and do anything for longer than 2 minutes. He is extremely proud about everything, if he can't do something like write the number 3, he will fly off the handle and have a mini tantrum and blame us for him not being able to do it. He will say things like "I'm fed up of this!" And he called DH a fucker the other day (where he got that from I don't know, maybe school).

He is awful from the moment he wakes up, trying to dictate everything everyone does, if his sister tries to grab one of her toys he will run to get in the way, or snatch it out of her hands, he is quite honestly awful company to be around.

DH and I have tried the gentle approach, the firmer approach, we've tried mimicking his moany voice, or his horrible voice, we've tried ignoring him, we've tried time outs, we've tried reward charts, weve tried humour we've tried telling him off, we've tried EVERYTHING.

He seems to be okay at school, and he was fine at nursery as no one ever raised any issues, but I am seriously starting to feel depressed about how we cannot seem to change and improve him. And the worst thing is that I just wish he was a happy little boy and it really saddens me that he seems to miserable at home.
I would love nothing more than a happy, loving relationship with him but it feels impossible right now. I wonder if this is just the person he is!

Any advice would be really really welcome!

I don’t mean this to be judgemental or picky, but the language you use to describe your son and not his behaviour is concerning and could feed into the problems itself. “Awful 4 yo DS and his behaviour”, “he is horrendous”, “he is awful” - all of these are attributing the traits to him directly and not the issue at hand. It reads as if you dislike your son and that likely doesn’t help the behaviour at home.

I think it's sadly become that way, so you're probably right. I love him deeply and I would take a bullet for him, but do I like him right now? No I don't, he's so unpleasant.
I have wondered how we can break the cycle, because I think he does play up more because he knows we're not happy with him. But how do we do that? Ultimately we're the parents and we have to be in charge, but he won't let us get there, at all.. it is just one constant battle.

Has shouting worked? Who suggested mimicking, humiliation and ignoring would work?

His world has been turned upside down with school and a sibling and he probably just wants a nice calm home life as much as you do.

I would try and connect with him on his level, give him lots of one on one time, indulge his interests and make him feel special and important again.

I recommend The Explosive Child by Ross Greene in terms of understanding behaviour in kids and how to get the best out of them for all the family.
I would wonder if he might be neurodivergent but he’s quite young. I am neurodivergent (Autism and ADHD, late diagnosed). I believe DD is too (functions ‘too well’ in school to get an assessment). She’s 11 now but we read it when she was about 6 and it totally turned things around. Somehow she’s managed to remain her quirky, fiesty self but we aren’t at loggerheads any more!
The beauty of this book is that it’s written without a specific diagnosis in mind. It just helps you to understand your child’s perspective and work from there. There’s an audiobook if reading it seems too overwhelming. How to talk so children will listen might be helpful too.
Is he like this in school or does he bottle it up til he gets home?

How unhelpful to someone who is struggling! Rubbish!
My older dgs is five and is going through a very argumentative phase. He's been rude to me and his mum, having mini tantrums and everything is "not fair." He claims everybody is shouting at him when they definitely are not. He also winds up his younger brother deliberately.
I think it's because he's just started school and has a number of after school activities so he's tired and his brain hurts. His parents are cutting back on the number of activities and at weekends they try to do something as a family. Sunday is for resting. We ignore the temper as much as possible, keep reinforcing good listening etc and separate the boys at times. Has your ds just started school? It could be he is struggling with big emotions and not sure how to deal with them.

Another point is tv. Dgs1 was watching YouTube where children stamped their feet and were rude. We think he's been influenced by that behaviour so Vlad and Niki are banned!

He is totally ruining home life right now

He has always been a real handful for us

Right now he is horrendous

He is awful from the moment he wakes up

He is quite honestly awful company to be around

This is the way you speak about your four year old. You're the problem op, you and your oh. And mimicking him is horrendous behaviour, that poor kid.

What you need to do is take a parenting class and think long and hard about how you treat him and talk about him.

I definitely think some work yourself on how you "take" the moany or disagreeing voice is needed. My children often say things which I hear as sarcastic, rude, insulting - really 90% of the time it's them not being versed in social conventions, or sometimes ND DD will pick up a detail that makes me feel she is deliberately getting at me or missing the point to annoy me.

But really she isn't.

I think you need a big deep breath and a reset of your expectations. Your DS is getting older and having more of his own personality. This next stage or parenting is more emotional labour than physical for you - working on how not to be triggered and get angry when he behaves in ways you think are hurtful to you or spoil something you're trying to do. It's a narrative in your head, not his behavior.

"What a sunny day DS!" you say cheerfully.
"No it isnt" he replies gruffly.
That's the point at which you need to stop and instead of going on long rant internally "Jesus why can't he just be nice??!" you have to respond mildly and not take things personally at all.

DH having withdrawn is a thing - does he maybe not see it as such a problem?

Taking toys is something to calmly deal with, but again think about from his perspective in the longer term. Does he have special toys and things you don't let the baby have? That might be important for him, to have some autonomy and his own stuff.
Also agree on the book recs.

He doesn’t sound awful or neurodivergent to me. He sounds like almost every 4 year old I know who started school this term. They are all handling a huge transition, new people, new rules, less time at home. They’re exhausted and probably bottling all of their emotions up while at school in order to meet expectations there.

My dd is a delightful kid but she’s on an absolute hair trigger right now. Everything sets her off, constant push back and demands and she melts down at the drop a hat. Luckily she’s my third so I know this is pretty normal. Other parents I speak to report similar issues or other things like poor sleeping/regression/tantrums at the school gate.

We are giving a lot of leeway here. Lots of hugs and attention. Lots of letting things go. We’re still firm on the big things (so no hitting or dangerous behaviour). But if she’s raging I generally just let her and then offer a hug and a snack if I think she might be hungry. It will pass once they’re more settled and quicker the less caught up in it you can get.

Sympathy. It isn’t easy being their safe space to melt down.

How does he react to praise?
Is it worth trying praising all the things (even the really small stuff "oh brilliant, you put your socks on so well today"

He could be using his current behaviour to get attention. Even parents being cross attention is better than none.

Thanks all.

He definitely bottles it up until he gets home. He's much much better around anyone but DH, me and his sister.

He is extremely bright, and socially aware, he loves playing with other children and he seems to be very popular.
We have always questioned if he finds home boring because nursery/school and playing/running around all day suits him a lot more.

The change with school has obviously had an impact, and he has been going to after school club 3 days a week too, but seems very happy there. Also he was really bad months before school started and before we even spoke about it.

He just seems sooo uptight, stressy, proud and awkward, and I notice other children aren't like this. They seem more innocent and relaxed.

I think he could be ND, in what way I don't know.

@StarsBeneathMyFeet has written a kind post. I also wonder if he's ND, but truthfully it's very early so that's not really helpful albeit it might be somethign to keep in mind. He does sound a lot like one of my nephews who is being assessed for ADHD and DH and I suspect he might also have ASD.

What I'll say is try to see this from his perspective. Starting school is huge, and more so for some children. He may well be behaving at school, but is then finding when he comes home it's all too much, too overwhelming and he's acting up. He's probably confused and tired and frustrated and of course, doesn't have the language or maturity to understand or express any of that.

I would consider trying to ensure that when he comes home from school he has space to let it out for a bit - perhaps home via the park, swimming, soft play or whatever works.
Does he eat at school? I know a lot of parents who would literally shove a packet of crackers into their child's hands as they came out the gates as otherwise they were monsters for a while.
Can you find a few activities a week he does alone, with just you/DH while the other one is at home with his sister so he can enjoy that 100% focus of his parent.
Distraction - DH was always better at this than me - but he'd make a joke or start a game to distract from whatever was getting DS worked up.

All behaviour is communication.

Trying to work out what it means, when it appears to be negative or unpleasant is the hard part, especially when you are so worn out with it.

Take a deep breath, accept that your usual methods of parenting are not working, then try something different.

School notice nothing because their day is structured.
Him trying to dictate everything everyone does could be anxiety due to lack of structure. Try putting routines in place for him. Get him a now, next and then chart, so he knows exactly what's happening. Twinkl is a great site for free downloads.

Make sure he has a lot of physical exercise.

Never stops talking, always on the go, try having an hour of calming activities before bed, maybe try a weighted blanket, not for sleep though.

If none of that makes any difference, contact your GP and ask for a referral to a paediatric team as you've mentioned the possibility of ND.

It's a long slow job, but you will get there eventually.

@DorotheaHomeAlone thank you, that's some really good advice. I know that I am taking him personally. I've said to DH before, and I'm ashamed to say it now, sometimes I feel like I resent DS for having a difficult temperament, and I think this really doesn't help how I respond to his rudeness. I am also not a morning person so the time before dropping him at school, and lugging his sister with us in the car/pram, is hard for me to keep my cool sometimes.

I do need to work on myself first, and even though the first poster on here was harsh, there is some truth in it.

Does he get any one-to-one time with either parent? Or praise for things he's doing well? I'd love to see you list some of his good points and think about how you can develop those rather than viewing him as inherently 'bad'. You want him to be happy, but would you be happy if your parents mimicked you or shouted at you?

If you're not careful you're going to have a golden child/scapegoat family dynamic going on and that can be hugely damaging for both children. Sorry if the above sounds harsh and I do sympathise (my own 4 year old pushes my buttons daily!).

My DD who is nearly 5 is quite argumentative but is getting better…you say he’s just started school, he might be trying to deal with his feelings about that as it’s a big change. I don’t agree he’s ND, he sounds very normal! They are still finding out who they are at this age and asserting themselves.

I know it’s hard but you can’t expect the same emotional intelligence from a 5 year old as you do an older child or even an adult. What’s worked for us is when DD gets to arguing, we simply stop talking about that and redirect the conversation. Talk about something they like, or what would you like to do at the weekend etc. For meltdowns (such as after we tell her no) we carry on and just let her get it out. Ignore any negative attention seeking behaviour, don’t engage and they soon learn they won’t get a rise out of you. We also have a sticker chart, every night before bed we do it together and we have things on there like kind hands, kind words, and if she misses a sticker for bad behaviour she knows she won’t get a special treat at the end of the week.

Make sure as well when he is good you praise him and massively ham up the acting about how great he is.

He is extremely bright, and socially aware, he loves playing with other children and he seems to be very popular.

This is an interesting comment. I would consider also booking an appointment with his teacher to discuss your concerns. Same nephew I mentioned above on the surface is like this. But school made a few comments that SIL got very upset about and refused to take on board when he was this age. They said that he was very social and confident but behind his peers in respect of actual social interaction. They were a bit vague, and SIL was so upset I suspect further discussions were nixed, but DH and I always felt that while he was confident and seemed popular in the beginning - it was because he was the "crazy" one who did the crazy/funny things. But over time, he had fewer friends because he would hurt people or break their stuff or refuse to play their games or have tantrums if they didn't want to do what he did but Sil just saw all of that as him being "boisterous" or "enjoying rough and tumble". Even now, she thinks his confidence is a good sign, rather than realising that he's getting older and has almost no boundaries or sense of what is or is not appropriate and she sees this overstepping as him being friendly vs intrusive.

I’m so sorry to read about your struggles @rosyandjam .

The good news is, he’s fine at school and nursery. That means you can rule out any serious problems. What you are left with, is a very unfortunate state of affairs, just at home. You and his father need to pull together over this and be completely on the same page.

Your son is only four, so he’s not yet mature enough to vocalise all his needs. Therefore his behaviour is telling you that all is not right for him. He’s getting plenty of attention, which is what he wants. What you have to do now is work hard on giving him positive attention. He needs to be praised for every single bit of good behaviour. The bad behaviour should be ignored. Of course if he’s putting himself or his sister in danger, then you have to step in.

Make as much time as you possibly can to give him your time. This should be cuddles, getting down on the floor to join in with him playing, reading to him, colouring with him, doing a puzzle with him. Anything where he has either you or his dad’s undivided attention. When he’s absorbed and playing nicely, praise him.

Don’t expect a miracle. This will take time but you have to persevere with it. Praising good behaviour, until you feel like a parrot, is the way forward. It’s tackling the problem from a different direction.

I think the problem is you and your negative attitude towards him which he will be picking up on. It honestly reads like you hate him. He's four.

When he does things well, we really praise him and he loves it.
We do separate the kids at the weekend, and we get out for walks as much as possible.

We were thinking of signing him up to football classes at the weekends (he loves football) but I don't know whether that's just another structured thing and after a week of school he might be better off not going to it. It's just much easier if we separate him and his sister as much as possible right now.
I'm hoping when she's older (she's 18 months currently), that he will find her more interesting and they can play together better.

My son is like this. He has ADHD with an IQ well over 140. For us more structured afterschool activities (and then being really strict about bedtimes) worked really well. His behaviour improved massively.

Oh and nothing you have said is abnormal 4 yo behaviour. Not one thing.

I agree with the PP, harsh and otherwise - all behaviour is communication.

If you can change 'horrendous' to 'struggling' you might find it easier on all of you. As the parent of a ND child (PDA, ADHD, ASD) I found that the usual parenting strategies also did not work (although not sure mimicking a child is a parenting strategy).

He might be ND he might not be, but it is a rough age children anyway - they don't have the communication skills to know or communicate why they feel and therefore behave this way. I found parenting courses incredibly useful - I had to retrain my brain to view meltdowns in a totally different way. Even now DD is 16, I know that there is absolutely no point trying to change a meltdown - the priority is keep them safe (and by that I mean physically and emotionally), understand that the aftermath of a meltdown can be very difficult (DD felt incredible shame at first about meltdowns when younger which in turn made their behaviour worse). Its not about punishment or correction.

Do as you can do to help DS name his feelings - let him know that anger is ok, but that there is normally a feeling underneath that that might be difficult or hard to name. Learn to spot the triggers that lead up to a meltdown (I used to be at th school gates at pick up time with food and water - trying to take more than a few steps without getting DD to eat and drink was disastrous) - there are always many many triggers but hard to spot at first.

This was DS1 at 4.
Before he started school he was hard work but a joy. When he started school he was a model pupil but at home he cried, screamed, and was generally emotional and hard work.

We worked out that he was overwhelmed by it. Even though he loved school and was exceptionally bright he was immature and didn't cope. We brought bedtime forward an hour and tried to keep everything as quiet and low key as possible.
He was fine by the end of the year but would revert every September for a long time.

I would add that 4 was the hardest age for both my DSs who are now adults

He just seems sooo uptight, stressy, proud and awkward, and I notice other children aren't like this. They seem more innocent and relaxed.

But you say there aren’t any issues at school? You’re comparing apples and oranges - you can’t compare other kids out and about to him at home. Little kids at school, in public, and at home, are three different children!

We walk to and from school most days with my son’s classmate and their mum. She was shocked when I described how awful our evenings could be, she had only met the happy, chatty version of my son.

I do think this is much more normal than you realise. As adults it’s hard to understand why school is such a big change if our kids have been at a setting before. But it is, it’s huge and emotionally draining, and exhausting.

Things that helped us were: food. Literally shove a snack in his hands as soon as he reaches you. Ignore anyone looking judgemental. Stop at a playground on the way home if you can - took me a long time to realise that though mine was tired, it was mental/emotional not physical. School requires them to do as they’re told all day, they need a free time release. Have an activity ready at home - toys set up, a craft, whatever. Something he can dive in to without thinking about it.

And yes, reframe your own way of looking at things. It is so easy to get drawn in to an argument over whether the sky is blue! You have to find a way to let that stuff wash over you.

He could be ND, he might not be. Try and go with the flow for now.