Desperate for some advice on how to deal with awful 4 yo DS and his behaviour

[rosyandjam]

Sorry this is a little long but I'd be very grateful if anyone could help..

My DS has just started school, he will be 5 in November.
He is totally ruining home life right now, DH seems totally withdrawn and like he's given up, and I just end up shouting every day multiple times because I have tried every other avenue to improve his behaviour but nothing is helping him.

He has always been a real handful for us but right now he is horrendous. He argues with everything we say, if I said the sky is blue he would say "no it isn't!" In a really unpleasant voice. He has serious jealousy issues with his young sister (who is the words easiest child and I think that makes him seem even worse), he is frantic and can't sit still, he doesn't stop talking. Ever. He can't speak quietly. He won't sit and do anything for longer than 2 minutes. He is extremely proud about everything, if he can't do something like write the number 3, he will fly off the handle and have a mini tantrum and blame us for him not being able to do it. He will say things like "I'm fed up of this!" And he called DH a fucker the other day (where he got that from I don't know, maybe school).

He is awful from the moment he wakes up, trying to dictate everything everyone does, if his sister tries to grab one of her toys he will run to get in the way, or snatch it out of her hands, he is quite honestly awful company to be around.

DH and I have tried the gentle approach, the firmer approach, we've tried mimicking his moany voice, or his horrible voice, we've tried ignoring him, we've tried time outs, we've tried reward charts, weve tried humour we've tried telling him off, we've tried EVERYTHING.

He seems to be okay at school, and he was fine at nursery as no one ever raised any issues, but I am seriously starting to feel depressed about how we cannot seem to change and improve him. And the worst thing is that I just wish he was a happy little boy and it really saddens me that he seems to miserable at home.
I would love nothing more than a happy, loving relationship with him but it feels impossible right now. I wonder if this is just the person he is!

Any advice would be really really welcome!

He sounds a bit like my DS, now 7, and just diagnosed with ADHD, although he never tried to behave at school, which in some ways makes it easier because the pressure doesn't build so much.

Does he have something he really enjoys? For my DS it's football, but if there is anything active he likes, maybe one of you could take him out to do that or to the park when you pick him up from school so he has some time to burn off some of his excess energy?

Make sure he's not hungry when he gets home too - that can contribute to bad humour.

As others have said, try to let as much of the trivial bad behaviour go as possible and only pick up on risky stuff and hitting you/his sister etc.

And praise, praise, praise. If it turns out he is ND, with ADHD, for example, then attention is one of the things his brain is seeking all the time. And it doesn't.matter whether it is positive or negative attention but he may have learned that bad behaviour yields attention quicker. So praise him for anything good that he does.

For our DS, we have been recommended to give him a space to go when his feelings are too big and he needs to calm down. He has built a little den in a corner of the sitting room for this, but it's early days so I can't say whether it works or not. An important point though is that it isn't a punishment place and it isn't apart from us.

Good luck OP, and remember with the bad stuff comes a lot of good. You have said he is bright, socially aware and popular. These are all wonderful attributes. He is badly behaved round you and DH because he can be. You are his safe people and love him despite everything. It is really hard but important to remember that.

Op I think you're taking this really well and I can see you want things to get better but it feels like you really need to change the narrative and framing as round how you describe (and feel) about your son. I'm not saying this to try and make you feel guilty but step into his perspective. He's four and two ish years ago a cute and sweet baby came along and everyone was enamoured. Now he has to go to school all day and when his home he might suspect his mum and dad don't really like him. So he pushes and moans to feel seen.

I'm not suggesting you ignore all behaviour that isn't acceptable. You can still set and hold boundaries in a loving way but could you try and reframe how you see and talk about him. And how you doing that to him. So for example if he angry and snatching you could take the toy away from him and say 'I'm sorry I can't let you do that. It looks as if you're looking for something to play. Can I help you find something:. I know this might all sound a bit twee but we all need to feel seen and loved.

I suspect you would benefit form talking this out with DH and getting some agreement and consistency. Maybe try really visibly appreciating and loving him and see if that changes things

Other posters have covered ND really well and I don't think you can rule it that out but regardless you still need boundaries and love

I found Little Angels by Dr Tanya byron and Divas and Dictators by Charlie Taylor very positive and helpful

DS1 sounds very similar. He's now in Yr 1 and things seem to have calmed somewhat! A lot of it was insane amounts of jealousy about DS2, but now that DS2 is 18 months and worships the ground DS1 walks on things have improved in that regard.

We didn't find any magical solutions, but time and not rising to his levels were the most successful approach. He's such an emotional child, in good and bad ways, and working out what helped with his anger was really tricky. I didn't think I'd be a parent that sent a child to their room, but DS1 needs time by himself when he's worked up. Intervening before things escalated, even in small ways - for instance when I can tell that he's struggling with DS2 we often go into the kitchen together and he listens to music while I'm sorting out tea. Definitely 1 on 1 time helps. We had an almost mantra of "good things happen when everyone's being kind" and made sure that when things were going well we did lots of praise and special treats.

One thing that was weird that worked well was treating him like a baby sometimes - giving him a big cuddle and kissing him all over his face and telling him that no matter how big he got he'd still be my baby.

You are doing the right thing to praise him, when he does things well. Children love praise. Don’t just save the praise though, praise him for everything that’s not behaviour you don’t want. For example, if he is sitting quietly playing for a few minutes, say something like, ‘you are such a good boy, playing nicely’.

Don’t forget to actually play with him, as much as possible.

@rosyandjam thank you for making this post. My 4yo sounds similar in so many ways - also just started reception. I have no advice unfortunately as also massively struggling to deal with it and want to improve our relationship so will read the replies to your thread and hope we can both pick up some helpful tips. 💐

My DC1 is 6 and just started yr1 and can be like you describe. It's not all the time or even every day but they go through phases that are really bad sometimes. What helps me now they are 6 is to remind myself that the utterly terrible periods DO come to an end and things always settle down again after (at least until the next bump...!). I also try to make time for self-care for myself and really work on my own emotional wellbeing etc - if I'm stressed it's much harder to remain calm and that just makes everything worse, as youre also experiencing. You cant pour from an empty cup and all that.

As they get older I think it does get easier because the child increases in understanding and you can teach them better ways to express and cope with their big feelings.

I found the books 'How to talk so little kids will listen' and also 'raising your spirited child' helpful too for ideas of strategies to use.

This behaviour is really common in the first few months of starting school. Kids have to adjust to new routines, new standards of behaviour, a new teacher as well as 29 other children in their class. It's an awful lot for a little child of 4 to take in and as a result they often kick off hugely at home to let off steam and rebalance.

Try to be more understanding and less negative about your son. None of his behaviour sounds unusual, he's asking for more reassurance and affection. Reacting with harshness will only escalate and prolong the negative behaviour. Good luck!

My eldest was very challenging on starting year R. It did get better. DC2 who is diagnosed autistic actually coped better and was an easier child in general but eldest is awaiting an assessment so they're potentially both ND. They are both bright and sociable BTW and there were only really small signs at 4 or 5.

Completely agree with occasionally babying them. I think when they start school they are encouraged to be a 'big boy' and the pressure can get too much.

I do think your language is interesting - 'uptight', 'stressy' and 'proud' are not words you often hear parents using to describe small children - I've had three so I've used my fair share of colourful descriptions but those words aren't some I would reach for with a child.

I echo other posters, all behaviour is communication. My daughter is 4 and has just started school and frankly, her behaviour isn't much different to your sons. She has a temper, flys off the handle if she doesn't get her own way and although shes the youngest person in our house, her moods can dominate the entire household at times. BUT she's very little and she's been thrust into a whole new environment where she has a whole new routine, has to wear special clothes, do all different things, the food is different, the people are all different and almost all older than her etc. It's a lot and its very overwhelming for small children even if they seem to have adapted well and are popular. It also starts to highlight small but stark differences in stage of development (some kids can pretty much read and write when they get to school but my eldest literally couldn't hold a pencil properly) which can lead to frustration and feelings of shame, even if that's not what the child would call them.

My mantra with this stuff is cover the basics like you would with a baby - are they hungry? Are they tired? If both of these needs are met get them outside - doesn't have to be tiring - chalk the driveway or look for bugs, whatever, but the fresh air seems to reset kids like nothing else. But first make sure he has had enough to eat - kids are starving after school and some don't eat well when they are there (my daughter barely eats at all at school).

Also, stop seeing your daughter as good and him as bad - doesn't matter if you never say those words, the feeling will be coming off you in waves and he will know.

Finally - I send the explosive child book, my eldest had a terrible time with covid stuff - he started school in 2020 - and his behaviour was off the charts. This book was really useful. We also liked 'my way to keep anger away' and 'what to do when your temper flares'. all on amazon. My eldest is 9 now and just a joy, so these things don't always mean the child is ND or that it will last forever - sometimes its a situational response.

Thanks so much everyone for your really good advice and tips, I feel already much better and have some strategies to move forwards with.

The baby thing is so true, DS loves to pretend he's a baby, maybe I will try that a bit more because he seems to connect with me better and become a bit more affectionate when "being a baby" 😆

I recommend the books The Incredible Years and Raising Boys.

Transition is tough for kids and it’s hard to see his “perfect” sister still enjoying time with mum at home.

My DS is a bit older but his temperament is transformed since he started going to football every Saturday and Sunday with DH and for a treat at the bakery together afterwards. Kids really need exercise plus the security of routine and one to one time with a parent. My DS also needs to eat a lot so he doesn’t get hangry and get to bed on time.

Oh yeah and love bombing works much better than time outs or anything like that. Although we do remove screen time for aggressive behaviour towards others.

Shortly after starting school we found that our 4 year old boy literally needed to go to bed an hour earlier to cope with the exhaustion brought on by school. And school evenings need to be low key, low demands, relaxed, with an early supper!

So as soon as in the door, we left him alone to watch TV for 15 minutes and have a snack. Decompression time. Take the younger sibling(s) elsewhere. Then turn TV off (very firm boundary, clear expectations) and allow some time to wind down with toys, early dinnertime, bath and bedtime really early, maybe he even needs to go to bed earlier than the younger siblings.

We had enthusiastically signed him up to a few clubs after school and dropping all of these really helped. They were just too much. Even though he had attended nursery full time for several days a week, and reception is mostly play - school was still obviously a different league for him.

Agree with another post that outdoor playtime after school eg at the playground is really helpful at just getting them to relax and decompress after school.

Without that extra rest / sleep, his behaviour was just much worse than anything we'd seen prior to that stage. Stroppy, rude, belligerent, argumentative, downright mean to younger siblings etc. I think he was just holding it all inside through his day at school, and ready to explode.

Things will hopefully really settle in the next few weeks as he adjusts.

@LadyMacbethssweetArabianhand no it’s not “rubbish”. The language we use about children is important and impacts our interactions with them. If we perceive a child to be the problem and not their behaviour, the implication is that it is a fixed problem that cannot be changed. Children can pick up on this, even at very young ages, and it can lead to long-term problems with behaviour and self-worth. It’s not “unhelpful” to point this out to the OP if this is a part of the problem she is facing.

Yes. Your first paragraph really worked with my two.

Second this, I read it for my NT but difficult child and it was really helpful.

My just turned 4yo has been testing for the last 2 months. She has food allergies and we were trying to reintroduce egg over the summer and she turned from a delight to be around into a surly teenager. We stopped it as we didn't want a reaction on top of her moods but it went away within days of stopping. She then told us that her stomach had stopped hurting. We tell her all the time to tell us if she doesn't feel very well but she hides it in case we will stop her playing and she generally wants with what she wants to do. We find the same with illnesses too some times the only thing we notice is she's got a shorter fuse and then we take her temperature and she's got a raging fever

She has been knackered and irritable since starting school too. We bought a bag of little pom poms to get during the day. I have made a list of things she can get a pom pom for. There are about 20 opportunities during the day to get them and we will count them up at the end of the week for a rewards over the weekend. Focusing on the small things she does do during the day has helped. She had her swimming lesson after school the other day and we had our surly teenager back for the evening. So exhaustion is definitely at play.

Some of the arguements we have had have been ridiculous it takes every ounce of strength to not argue back and try and reason with her. She gets herself so worked up she will be fighting that up is down and down is up. Distraction and deflection works better.

Also the first week of school was hell for us, she was just tantruming constantly, refusing to go to sleep. She’s actually generally quite reasonable but the first week was AWFUL. So it may just be adjusting. Mine gets frustrated if she doesn’t get things easily too, but we talk about how it’s fine not to know how to do something but practicing will help her master it. I started with, “once you couldn’t stand up but you kept trying, you fell over a lot but you kept at it..” and so on to everything she learnt to do, walking, running, reading etc.

Hmm

DD has a little friend like this - she's vastly improved with age.

Have you tried love bombing? Also I would try and get a referral for CAMHS because he is so unhappy.

OP, I am a year behind you with a 3 year old DS and I could have written your post! In fact, I basically did last night! You'll find it easily on this parenting board.

We're the same - no concerns raised by nursery, but absolutely everything at home is a battle, despite us being a loving, attentive family. Also has a younger sibling who can seemingly do no wrong. But mainly, I am so with you that I just desperately want to help him be happy and navigate his life without all this rage and frustration. We've tried everything, all the strategies you mention, and feel powerless to help him.

I'm sorry I can't offer advice and that you're going through this too, but maybe like me, you'll feel a bit comforted to know that you're not alone. Pop over to my thread where several people responded to say their difficult child had grown into happy older children/adults. There is hope! Solidarity 💐

Have you got space for a trampoline in your garden? Send him out on it when he gets home from school?

I know you said he is very happy at the after school club on the 3 days a week he attends it; however it does make for a very long day for him when he's just started school which I'm sure contributes to making him even more tired which doesn't help his behaviour.
Lots of people have given you good advice hopefully he will improve soon.

If he gets on well with the structure of school/ nursery etc. maybe having clearer boundaries/ timings for things will help.

Time for screen and snack
Outside play
Dinner time
Bath and bed etc.