How to deal with a negotiating/questioning child

[LuckyMum1989]

A conversation with my 5yo DD might go like this:

• when you have finished colouring in Snow White's skirt, put your coat on please. It's time to go.

* can i colour in her legs as well?

• no we need to go. Just the skirt and off we go.

* I just do a bit on her bow.

• No DD. Skirt and then put coat on.

* I just need to tidy all my pens {note... only wants to tidy pens when asked to do something else!}

• No time for that. Coat and shoes please.

[Holds coat out] * Can I put my shoes on first?

• Just put your coat on, DD

* Why coat first?

• [sometimes] because I need my hands

Or

• [other times] because I said so. Let's go.

* Can I bring my bear?

• No love. We're only going to the pharmacists before it closes so not going to be long. No bears.

* If I run really quickly and get my bear and I don't make any fuss, can I get my bear very very quickly?

• i said no, DD. We have to get going. Shoes. Now.

* I just take my barbie because that is already downstairs. [Tries to go back into dining room]

• NO. We have to go. We don't need any toys. Come on!

* if I ask really nicely...

• NO! GO! Come on DD, go!

It doesn't matter if I have pre-prepared her (hence giving her warning about finishing her colouring), if I give her time to get a toy or not, if I say "when the timer goes off in 5 minutes, we are going to get shoes and coat on and get in the car"
EVERYTHING is up for discussion.

Going upstairs to wash hands? Can she wash her hands downstairs? Why not?
If she doesn't put her hands near the boiling pasta water, THEN can she wash her hands downstairs?
Need an early night? If she has no bath (she loves baths) can she have two stories?
10 minute timer to play in her room? Can she have 15 if she tidies up?
If she doesn't make a fuss about this, can she do that?

What does that sign mean? But WHY is that the rule? Is it dangerous? But WHY is it dangerous?

It is exhausting!

The reality is that if the building is on fire, or there is a threat or whatever, I need her to be able to listen to me without needing to understand the whys and wherefores of every little thing.

I don't want to answer every single question with "because I said so" nor do I want to answer every single question with a full and detailed answer!

Sometimes we have time to explain. Sometimes we don't.

Sometimes we have energy to explain. Sometimes we don't.

Sometimes it is easy to explain. Sometimes it isn't.

She's trying so hard to follow all the rules and ask politely etc so she's not demanding in terms of outright disobedience or aggression, which means it feels awful telling her off when her 10th question starts with "If i ask nicely and I am super good then can I...." because she is trying so hard to do things the right way... but at the same time, doing things the right way means sometimes doing things because your mum says so - even if you don't understand WHY all the time.

Help me break this cycle! Any tips out there from a parent who has escaped these conversations with a tiny negotiator?

for education, we explained that teachers did not have time to explain the ‘why’ of everything in real time. We were also honest with our child that sometimes the rules were poorly written, but unless they were egregiously bad, she had to follow them. And yes, we used words like egregiously with our 4 year old she understood them without difficulty because this kind of behavior often goes hand-in-hand with hyperlexia.

@LuckyMum1989 i’ve debated mentioning that there is a decent chance you are going to end up wondering if your dd has ASD at some point.

if you do end up down that path, it is nothing to worry about. These girls tend to do very well. I have a good career and life and my own dd is well on her way to being launched successfully.

She sounds absolutely amazing and whilst tiring, be proud you're raising an inquisitive independent and assertive little girl. She is rightly questioning and negotiating, bang on track developmentally, and making you really think how much of what you ask of her is down to necessity versus ego.

I haven't read all of the replies, so I apologise if this has been covered but I haven't seen you note it.
Congratulations on your new baby.
A 10 week old new baby will have turned her world upside down so she is going to respond as anyone else would....more behaviour unconsciously trying to decrease anxiety by increasing feelings of control. This is normal. Try to be even more patient, even more giving and do more tuning into what emotions she's conveying.

No real advice OP but my DS (3) is very much like this, most of the time I just try to give him the information he desperately wants and explain things to him, but I agree it’s bloody exhausting and at times incredibly frustrating.
But having said that, I’m actually exactly the same so he definitely gets it from me, and I remember being constantly shut down by my mother as a child, teen and even now as an adult, I think she (and sometimes other people as well) see it as me not taking an answer for an answer or being pushy, but it’s not, it’s because I’m genuinely interested in knowing “why” when it comes to decisions made or a particular reasoning, I love to discuss the nitty gritty and understand why people work the way they do and make the decisions they make so I find it incredibly frustrating to be shut down and refused a discussion.

Timer - 'you have 5 minutes, when the timer beeps it's time for coat and shoes and leaving the house'

When it beeps stop everything (if she asks for teddy etc within the 5 minutes it's a yes, after it's a no but next time she can get them in the 5 minutes if she wants to)

Set timer again, 'you have 2 minutes for coat and Shoes who can do it faster mummy or you' Nice race if possible - if she doesn't race you then you do it, you be the winner and put a sticker on, then quickly do hers for her and walk out the door

If mine asks why etc I do give answer but I try to base everything on times not actions 'we had to do that within 5 minutes or we will be late and I can't let us be late' pretty much is the reply so that things are just kept the same answer with a timer routine regardless of school/whatever it is we need to go to

This. And this:

By child three I was saying ‘I don’t care what you do or how you do it as long as you’re ready to leave in three minutes.’ And then left her to get on with it. She is by far the more independent and self sufficient of my children.

I am in many ways an overly indulgent parent but if my older DC (younger one still a baby) behaved liked this, it would be because they were on the wind-up. That in itself isn't a bad thing (part of social learning is pushing boundaries is a humorous/jokey way to see what is acceptable) and sometimes I'll indulge it when we have time - when we're walking home or on the bus and have all the time in the world. But I don't think it's the end of the world for them to learn that sometimes their behaviour is exasperating to others, because sometimes it is. Again, part of social learning.

If all else fails, you can challenge Bluey's dad - "Time and place, man. Time and place".

I try to use humour (of a sort) when I'm starting to lose the plot. So I say to my 6yo, "If you haven't put your shoes on by the time I've brushed my teeth, I'm going to turn into a crocodile and bite your feet off so you won't need shoes any more".

Then, because I know my child and what they're like, I interrupt teeth brushing upstairs three times to yell downstairs, "SHOES?", "ARE THE SHOES ON YET?", "THE CROCODILE IS COMING AND SHE'S HUNGRY!".

I think with agency comes responsibility. If they're old enough to question, they're old enough to understand that sometimes you have to get shit done and help you with that. So I'd reinforce "These are our goals today and this is what we as a team need to do to achieve them". Of course involve them as much as possible - I quite often give my DC a mini-shopping list when we're in our small corner supermarket so they go around by themselves and have to find 5 items - but ultimately the reason you have authority is because the buck stops with you. You are responsible for feeding, housing, caring for, nurturing your child, getting them to school on time, getting to work on time etc. and that's why you're the team leader and get to make the rules.

On the because i say so topic:
https://afineparent.com/positive-parenting-faq/stop-authoritarian-parenting.html

This isn't authorative it is authoritarian.
It will result in children who are either cowed and anxious or sneaky and rebellious. Neither of which is great.....

Some alternatives here

I am 10 years on from this, and both DC did it. You’ve had lots of good advice, and I basically agree with the ‘sometimes we have time to discuss, and sometimes we don’t and you need to do what I say and I’ll explain afterwards’ approach.

Specifically on the ‘Will she stop or will she argue’ issue, I created a game. On the way to school, we played ‘go, go, go….. STOP’. Lots of laughter and making longer or shorter gaps. DH and I both did it, with the STOP at random intervals and jokingly saying anyone who didn’t stop would get eaten by crocodiles (including me, on occasion). After a few days, I was certain that a loud STOP would be effective.

Yup, that's a 5yo. I think most of them are like this tbh.

I try to stick with reasonably strict routines (finish breakfast, wipe face, shoes coat, no there's no time for playing now you can finish it later) so that she can't claim ignorance about what comes next. I find myself saying "no, there's no "just", it's time to put your shoes on so that's what you need to do" a lot at the minute. A lot.

ETA we also often make her repeat what we've said back to us as she just doesn't hear when we give the explanation the first time.

Christ, thank you. At last, someone with a bit of common sense and a proper approach to parenting. I absolutely dread to think how all these children are going to grow up.

My friend (who's DD is older now, about 9 but has been doing this for a while) has handled this SO WELL imo. Her DD has the option to say 'can I negotiate/argue/fight/persuade you on that?' and wherever my friend has the capacity she says yes. When she says no it's a hard no and there's no further discussion.

I.e.

'Halley it's time to leave in 5 minutes'
'can I negotiate?'
'sure...we're leaving in 5 minutes because it's bath night and I need to make dinner'
'okay, how about if I have a shower instead, could I stay 10 minutes?'
'yup we can do that'

Or

'its time to brush teeth'
'can I argue more screen time?'
'nope you had a 5 minute warning and there's school tomorrow, time to head upstairs'.

Honestly it's just working so well. It's teaching the kid negotiation skills, communication, listening, initiative and also when to respect that in some situations you just gotta accept what you're given and deal with it. We're currently implementing it in our home with mixed results, but my kids are younger. Seeing it as good foundations.

@Ifthisiswheretheworldisheadingcountmeout

Love this!

Right?! She's a genius. Also a lawyer, so the mini lawyer comment from earlier was bang on!

I love this!!

So many good ideas on this thread- Thankyou!

Finding balance is so important. No one wants to have to negotiate every point every time. Just as I'm no one wants to just put their foot down every time. There has to be room for both - and I really like this suggestion. Thankyou @Ifthisiswheretheworldisheadingcountmeout. I may change my username to Thischildisgettingwildlyoutofwing as an homage one day 😉

ha, you do that :D I'll look out for it!

Best of luck :) will let my friend know she needs to start writing that parenting book before I post all her incredible ways on mumsnet.

Dd12 is like this. She can't make anything simple and seems to enjoy questioning me / stressing me out. Not saying this is what a 5 yo does but it is frustrating!!

Dd10 is like this, so a bit more mature. We now have discussions about how all the faffing is wasting my time and that's not fair on me. Similarly being late is wasting other people's time and that's rude. If she asks for something that she's asked for earlier, I'll remind her we've had that conversation and ask her to recall it. I'm teaching her efficient ways of doing things, like brushing teeth before putting on lipstick 🙄 so she can start to use the routines herself. It's fucking exhausting, though. She's also got AHDH, not sure if it's linked.

Might get flamed for this but I think you do have to show choice and consequences and follow through. So with one of mine ( 3.5) who is like this one day she had some bubbles in the garden snd was then playing on the slide. I needed to do the school run and I told her three more goes on the slide and then we leave. Counted the goes with her and said no more. She then went to go back on the slide again. I said to her Mummy said no. If you don’t come now Mummy is going to give your bubbles to next door’s child. She looked me straight in the eye and carried on climbing the steps. So I followed through. Went and put the bubbles on next doors doorstep. She bawled her eyes out and I felt horrible but now if she’s not refusing to do something and I’ve tried choices and timings etc I only have to say ‘shall I give x to next door?’ And she does it albeit reluctantly. I don’t like having to threaten her with things but I haven’t found a better way and I’ve read most of the parenting books mentioned on here

They are running the country. They dominate tech and academia

treating your inquisitive children like they deserve an answer is not a new parenting technique.

@Upinthenightagain personally would never flame a fellow parent for following through on a non violent consequence, but you saying you felt awful is the reason I try and temper my consequences these days. For me personally feeling guilt is an indicator I went too far. Like the time I exasperatedly told my son if he hit his sister with his 'best stick' again I would chop it for firewood. He swung the stick, it hit her, I took the stick and put it on the wood pile. He balled, I felt like a bully. Now I'd be more likely to say something like 'once is an accident, twice is carelessness, I'm going to put the stick away until tomorrow so noone else gets hurt.

Once I've said it I try to always follow through, so I'm increasingly careful what I say.

My god I’m exhausted reading that and ready to explode!
you have the patience of a saint!!!

Yes I think that’s true. I’m not good with crying is probably why I felt guilty. I don’t think it was an unfair consequence in reality. I don’t think yours was either tbh.

Op, look up neurodivergence, pathological demand avoidance (PDA) and anxiety.

You could also try a group on Facebook called Gentle parenting for autistic/ ADHD / PDA children UK (and beyond)

My youngest is exactly the same and you need strategies! It can be extremely irritating I know, but it's not coming from a bad place, as you've identified.

Exactly the same here! It is exhausting 😴