Can 10 year olds be narcissists?

[LittleMissCloud]

Our DD is now 10 but she has never really outgrown the toddler style tantrums. She is foot stamping, screaming, demanding.

She is charming and polite and kind with nearly everyone else outside the home, particularly at school (model pupil in the classroom) and seems socially sophisticated.

At home, she is the opposite. Will do everything she can to put off doing her homework (despite being quite naturally bright). She will gravitate towards anything with sugar and reject nearly all vegetables or any food that looks a bit different eg the chicken may be dark brown so she will consider it burnt. So far, so normal I guess…

Just before we leave the house, she will nearly always have a meltdown over her clothes (too tight, too small, too hot, not the right style)…

She is constantly moaning about every single friend - even the ones who seem utterly blameless to me. She is the sort of ‘popular’ girl I would have initially wanted to hang out with but also the type that would be a nightmare. I just cannot relate to the friendship drama.

We have just had her birthday. Sleepover with a handful of friends. Activity she picked. Sushi. Burgers. A cake that I bought as she said she hates my baking. She screamed about the cake initially but ate it quite willingly. She had already had a joint big party with a friend but this was several weeks ago (only date that worked for all) and we felt we had to do something ‘small’ at least for her birthday.

We have bought her nearly everything on her wishlist and yet she says no one was nice to her. She said it’s the worst birthday ever. Everything is perceived as a slight against her.

The problem with boundaries and her is that she has zero fear. It takes all my self control not to smack her as occasionally she does launch herself at me, legs and fists flailing. She is not scared of anyone or anything even when DH puts on a menacing voice. She has a quick-witted comeback for anything.

Our older son is - relatively - an undemanding dream. He occasionally has a meltdown over screen time but recognises he’s being unreasonable.

From the start she has been much more vocal and determined.

I know all behaviour is communication and she seems to be telling us she feels unloved yet we bend over backwards for her so I don’t know what more we can do. We do try to set boundaries, have dramatically cut back on screens and have a better bedtime routine (she resists bedtime).

I’m dreading the teen years. Help!

Wow @InvisibleDragon a lot of this rings true. They say girls can get their self esteem from their mothers so this doesn’t bode well (as in, if they’re mothers feel a bit rubbish about themselves so will they). I have that book but again it’s been a while since I read it! Time to revisit the parenting stack of books I have.

I think @InvisibleDragon is right that her self-esteem is through the floor. People with low self esteem drag others down and bitch about them. She sounds preoccupied with how she's perceived: clothes and party being just right for her friends.

She's riding roughshod over you if you do things like buy a cake because she tells you your baking is rubbish.

Does she see you do anything for yourself or does everything revolve around her? Make sure you're doing things for you that have nothing to do with your children as well as carving out time for them. She needs to see you as a person in your own right who has hobbies and interests and who doesn't just run around after her trying to make her happy. When I was a child I knew the universe didn't revolve around me because my parents had active social lives and hobbies of their own. I got their attention but not to the detriment of them doing their own thing.

And what are her hobbies and social life like outwith school? By the age of 10 I was spending more time at youth clubs and so on with my peers, not bothering my parents constantly for things.

I know posters are saying a ten year old can't have narcissistic personality disorder, but it has to start somewhere. What you have described is the very basis of narcissism: having no empathy for others and seeing people merely as a means to your own ends. That then veers into psychopathy.

Glad it was useful @LittleMissCloud! If that was of thinking about it is helpful, you might find working with someone like a Family therapist really good. They wouldn't necessarily need to see your kids if you didn't want to (although they also could), but they could help you to work through how your own experiences as a child affect how you parent, and to try making some changes in how you communicate with each other at home?

Your daughter probably has narcissistic traits that everyone has to an extent. Full blown narcissism thrives in an out of control environment so I would say a focus on routine, sensible discipline ( not anything out of anger) and learning the value of things money can’t buy will help your daughter. My daughter is 9 and I understand the difficulties at this age.

She sounds a bit of a brat but that is probably due to the boundaries that are extended to her. Nothing wrong with being sassy but a lot wrong with being out and out rude!! She just needs her boundaries reinforcing and learning to understand what is acceptable and when.
Unacceptable behaviour particularly when at home is probably the hardest to control - she is throwing tantrums at 10? You are bending to her every need and that is still not acceptable in her eyes. She feels unloved - you just need to say that is not true and that you and she know it! What is unlovable is her behaviour because that hurts and upsets other people. There is a big difference and she needs to learn to recognise that.
Much as we would all love the world to revolve around us and pander to our needs - that just does not happen in real life. Maybe you need not to be so flexible to her needs and begin to teach her that other people matter too and that once in a while she may just have to wait for things to go her way.- if it happens at all. We all learn to live with disappointment at times but with resilience we bounce back and move on.

I wonder if she needs politely but firmly enforced boundaries, where she finds out you are in charge and that bad behaviour ensures you don’t get what you are demanding.

Apart from medication, what will an SEN diagnosis help with? I have zero problems with a diagnosis if it helps her. She is in an independent school so not sure how far they’d chase CAMHs etc.

It helps hugely with self esteem @LittleMissCloud. I have ASD and since being diagnosed I have managed to reframe my idea of myself as fundamentally lazy and socially inept. I need more recovery time than most people after a social event. My social skills are fine when I'm in a group of ND people. My DC is autistic and ADHD and we talk a lot about how to manage things like anxiety and sensory issues. Also rejection sensitivity which sounds like an issue for your DD too.

In your DD's case it could make the difference between thinking "Every time we leave the house I throw a strop, it must be because I'm a bad person" (which will obviously lead to poor self esteem) and "Leaving the house is hard when I am struggling to manage my sensory needs and a transition at the same time."

I think it's also an important point that she is bright, popular, at an independent school but only likes to do things if she knows she will succeed. Some (not all) independent schools can be very pressured and she could be responding to that. I'm thinking academic pressure, social pressure (to be the thinnest, prettiest, most popular etc) or even family pressure. By family pressure I don't mean you putting expectations on her, but around this age children do start to compare family life eg what parents do for a job, house size, type of car, where you go on holiday (all these happen at state schools and independent schools btw). I know people who went to independent schools whose families weren't as wealthy as others and so were looked down on.
Any of these pressures can make a child unhappy and insecure.

If your self-worth is tied to your academic ability, failure in a test is devastating.

If your self-worth is tied to your looks and popularity, then the "wrong" clothes or someone talking about you in a mean way or not liking you is damaging to your self esteem.

If your self-worth is tied to being part of a wealthy friendship group but your family don't have as much or don't summer in Tuscany, you may feel insecure and could resent your family.

I do think the trauma that you and her dad suffered as children plays a big role in this, and she may be ND but don't underestimate the pressures she is under at school, even if she appears happy there. Good luck

Genetics play a massive role in the development of a child.

They do, but there is no gene for narcissism.

I second the book recommendation for the explosive Child. Also have a Google or find a good book about girls with autism and how to support them. Our situation has improved over the years partly I think as DD has grown up and learned strategies to cope with him meltdowns herself and partly because we have backed off about certain things and accepted that she finds things difficult. We haven’t pursued a diagnosis as I don’t think she would meet the criteria but the background knowledge has been really helpful.

U have enabled her behaviour and now it’s bitten u on the bum.

I can only assume you don’t have children? And you’ve never studied child development?

From the top of my head it is my understanding that narcissism is the result of stunted development at the toddler stage. That's why narcs behave like toddlers in adult bodies. They have stopped developing at that age range due to trauma. If my understanding is correct then it is plausible that a ten year old could be narcissistic, but as the brain isn't fully developed at this stage then they may be a chance of moving the child into the next stage of development, which would be after they master empathy. I will await for somebody to correct and post a more researched response...

I would get external input to ascertain where you should go from here i.e. is it ND, parenting, arrested development etc then work out a plan from there.

@Springles indeed and there is a theory that parenting is what makes the difference as to whether these types of people use their self-centeredness and fearlessness in a pro-social way, because they have learned to control their anger and manage their interactions in a socially acceptable way or in an anti-social way.

lol?

It's worth looking into ASD / ND as autism can present very differently in girls and much of what you have detailed here fits. Which is not to say that other factors don't feed in but it's worth reading up on. Whatever the issues stem from it sounds very hard on you all and I hope you find answers soon.

OP it sounds a little like you've brought her up to believe the world should revolve around her. You give her everything she wants, nearly everything on her wish list, two parties because she has to have something on her actual birthday, bought a cake because yours won't do. You've parented her at the other extreme to that in which you were parented perhaps. What this can mean is that when things don't revolve around her, or things aren't perfect then they don't seem to be good enough. Perhaps you've made her expectations so high that it's hard for anything or anyone to be good enough.

I also agree that there could well be some neurodiversity going on here. The uncomfortable clothes could be sensory issues, fussy with food is pretty standard with ASD, difficulties with friends, perfectionism is not unusual, her meltdowns and sensitivity. Girls are also often very good at masking explaining the school/home divide.

I would go with the fact she may be autistic and that a lot of the social skills that come naturally or are picked up easily by others might not be so obvious or natural to her. So I would encourage her a lot in considering the feelings of others, how other peoples feelings can be hurt by what she is saying. Encourage her to have empathy for you and the rest of the family. So when she says you're cooking is awful pick her up on it. I often say to DS with ASD 'You're being rude' and explain why because he needs it spelt out to him quite bluntly or he won't get it. Things that are obvious to others just aren't to him.

Narcissism and autism actually often look very similar. Both can appear self absorbed and lacking in empathy to others. It's the motivations that are completely different.

Absolutely. Also, why does OP jump to that conclusion rather than neuro diversity.

Really interesting recommendations and things to think about re the autism. I’m sorry if I offended anyone with the narcissism thing but the behaviour seems so perplexing!

She does have a LOT of empathy for others. She often picks up on social interactions and power plays that are going on. She is highly observant - to the point where I wonder if in future she may want to try for MI5! Her memory for where any of us had placed a lost item used to be incredible though less so now.

I guess the autism thing is harder to square due to her ‘popularity’ etc.

@SavetheNHS I totally hear you which is why there are several ‘better/more highly ranked’ schools I won’t go near. She has said she’s far happier at this school than her old state one though. More opportunities to shine at what she is good at - creativity, English, singing, performing, sports. She doesn’t get overlooked anymore because she is not struggling or kicking off in class. The school is known for being non-pushy and we don’t live in a flash area but I will remain vigilant. I will never pay for my children to experience mental health problems in the name of getting good GCSEs etc.

I don't think autism = lack of empathy. My dd has ASD and if anything is TOO empathetic so she's suffering everybody's emotions! She can be quite self-focused though. But she is a teenager too, so...

@LittleMissCloud I hope you don't mind, but I've sent you a message (well, several actually - kept trying to start a new paragraph but sending instead!)

Absolutely! Autistic people often have affective empathy in spades, just struggle with cognitive empathy.

I think she sounds like she has no boundaries tbh. Were you quite soft when she was a toddler? DD is definitely a bit indulged but there are red lines, hitting, rudeness etc. my DD is definitely not a walkover (which as you said is great in a lot of ways), some kids need to parented much more firmly than others.

I would start with that, “the explosive child” is a great book and would really recommend it.