Can 10 year olds be narcissists?

[LittleMissCloud]

Our DD is now 10 but she has never really outgrown the toddler style tantrums. She is foot stamping, screaming, demanding.

She is charming and polite and kind with nearly everyone else outside the home, particularly at school (model pupil in the classroom) and seems socially sophisticated.

At home, she is the opposite. Will do everything she can to put off doing her homework (despite being quite naturally bright). She will gravitate towards anything with sugar and reject nearly all vegetables or any food that looks a bit different eg the chicken may be dark brown so she will consider it burnt. So far, so normal I guess…

Just before we leave the house, she will nearly always have a meltdown over her clothes (too tight, too small, too hot, not the right style)…

She is constantly moaning about every single friend - even the ones who seem utterly blameless to me. She is the sort of ‘popular’ girl I would have initially wanted to hang out with but also the type that would be a nightmare. I just cannot relate to the friendship drama.

We have just had her birthday. Sleepover with a handful of friends. Activity she picked. Sushi. Burgers. A cake that I bought as she said she hates my baking. She screamed about the cake initially but ate it quite willingly. She had already had a joint big party with a friend but this was several weeks ago (only date that worked for all) and we felt we had to do something ‘small’ at least for her birthday.

We have bought her nearly everything on her wishlist and yet she says no one was nice to her. She said it’s the worst birthday ever. Everything is perceived as a slight against her.

The problem with boundaries and her is that she has zero fear. It takes all my self control not to smack her as occasionally she does launch herself at me, legs and fists flailing. She is not scared of anyone or anything even when DH puts on a menacing voice. She has a quick-witted comeback for anything.

Our older son is - relatively - an undemanding dream. He occasionally has a meltdown over screen time but recognises he’s being unreasonable.

From the start she has been much more vocal and determined.

I know all behaviour is communication and she seems to be telling us she feels unloved yet we bend over backwards for her so I don’t know what more we can do. We do try to set boundaries, have dramatically cut back on screens and have a better bedtime routine (she resists bedtime).

I’m dreading the teen years. Help!

This.

There is a book called The Explosive Child with a girl in it that sounds similar to your child. It is a good read for dealing with a defiant child, I would recommend it

This is completely untrue. Babies are absolutely not clean sheets. They are born with their own personalities which are programmed into them from their genes.

You can’t create their personalities, you have to work with the personalities they are born with. Their personality will interact with the environment sure, but they are still born with personality traits.

Look it up. It’s is well established that we are born with personalities.

OP I think your own childhood has shaped how you parent your dd. Try not look for labels to explain her behaviour she’s just a child who hasn’t been given much boundaries

You can start off by telling her not to slag off other children as it’s in kind

if she rude to you - tell her. ‘You’re being rude and it’s unacceptable. If you carry on this is what’s going to happen’ and follow through with it but make sure it proportionate.

I think you’d really benefit from reading Doing the work by Nicole Lepara - it’s about recovering from childhood trauma because I think that’s where the issues stem from as you are unable to put boundaries in

Child sounds out of control and spoilt. 2 parties? She hits and kicks you Op? I recommend you sort it out now otherwise in about 3 years time, it will be even more hellish.

Lots of food for thought! Thank you to all. I am baffled as I used to be a massive believer in nature over nurture but two DCs are so different that I am in the nature camp now. She was born willful and I absolutely love that about her. Strong personality. Yes narcissist is harsh and even if they’re created much later, I need to know if she’s on the path to being one and how I can stop it!

How can I impose more boundaries and what should they look like?

I will try the suggestion above about lessening demands.

I don’t know her CAT score but I know she has ranged from off the scale in assessments to just above average (though she was jet lagged). She is also prone to missing out questions - again a sign of ADHD.

She ruminates a lot and can’t seem to get it out of her head that everyone is ‘mean’. (I don’t see everything but I do know she is one of the most popular children in her year. She is very sociable and savvy in company. She doesn’t lack empathy externally and will often rush to comfort a child or will point out when someone is being left out).

She has always had teen levels of disdain for her family!

Oh stop it. Babies will be born with their own personalities - point where I said they didnt. but kids behaviour is directly down to their parents.

OP, I would try asking this again on the SEN boards. Everything you mention indicates possible autism, sensory processing disorder; ADHD.

Obviously none of us can diagnose on here, but you have more than enough grounds to ask your child’s school to refer her to CAMHS for assessment for SEN and if they won’t then ask your GP to do it.

If your child’s behaviour is very different in different settings then it’s usually because they are masking in some settings then needing to explode in others as the pressure of masking is so huge. Other SEN parents may be able to advise you more specifically.

Sounds more like a spoilt brat, sorry Op.

If your CONVINCED she is a potential narcissist you need to look at where narcissism stems from - most likely from parent child relationship.

Imagine labelling a child a narcissist - go get therapy OP!

At least we are down to:

1. I’m a crap parent (I would agree with this broadly)
2. She’s a spoilt brat
3. She is SEN

maybe all 3? What I do know is it’s not great for family harmony and my son gets really upset by her behaviour. I have read the Highly Sensitive Child but will reread as it was some time ago.

Apart from medication, what will an SEN diagnosis help with? I have zero problems with a diagnosis if it helps her. She is in an independent school so not sure how far they’d chase CAMHs etc.

She seems truly happy at school. Much less so at home!

Boom!

She ruminates a lot and can’t seem to get it out of her head that everyone is ‘mean’. (I don’t see everything but I do know she is one of the most popular children in her year. She is very sociable and savvy in company. She doesn’t lack empathy externally and will often rush to comfort a child or will point out when someone is being left out).

to be clear - when I say lack of empathy I don't mean being unaware of people being upset etc. DS is actually extremely emphathetic. More about not understanding how their actions can impact other people. But it's a normal childlike behaviour that goes to extremes with narcissists (adults).

It sounds like you're aware that she might have some ND so perhaps it's worth getting her assessed. As others have said, there are markers for SPD, autism and ADHD so professional assessment might help as this could get worse as she goes into high school.

She ruminates a lot and can’t seem to get it out of her head that everyone is ‘mean’. (I don’t see everything but I do know she is one of the most popular children in her year. She is very sociable and savvy in company. She doesn’t lack empathy externally and will often rush to comfort a child or will point out when someone is being left out).

What kind of friendships/relations to the world outside the family are you and her father modelling for her? Does she see you having healthy, mutually-enjoyable friendships? Can you think of any source for her having absorbed the idea that everyone is 'mean'?

I ask because my parents taught me some spectacularly weird and unhelpful stuff about friendships when I was a child, including the idea that other people are 'out for themselves' etc. It took me until I was in my 20s to realise this was all about their own issues.

Rubbish. What about a child who has been abused by a teacher/scout master or someone else outside the home? Will their subsequent trauma-related behavioural issues be the fault of their parents?

Just to make it clear, I’m not saying that this scenario relates in any way to the OP. I’m just pointing out that there can be other factors resulting in behavioural problems that aren’t down to the parents.

Personality disorders (like narcissism) are not diagnosed in children under 18 because their personality is still being shaped.

As a pp has said, particularly with narcissism, all children are born narcissistic. Babies don't give a shit about anyone else they want their needs met. The job of a parent is to train the personality that a child is born with (and some are much more difficult than others) into a functional human being.

At 10 there is a hell of a lot of shaping that you can still do.

Think of her as a plant. Some plants need acid soil some plants need alkali soil. Some plants thrive with lots of watering others don't.

Your job as parent is to work out what she needs and provide it.

It could be that she’s stressed and walking on eggshells at school and all the built up tension is being unleashed at home. School is miserable for a lot of kids, compare her behavior over the school holidays

Apart from medication, what will an SEN diagnosis help with? I have zero problems with a diagnosis if it helps her. She is in an independent school so not sure how far they’d chase CAMHs etc.

Obviously, with ADHD, meds can help. With other SEN, it can be about figuring out appropriate adaptions at home and school to help. This is particularly true if she's masking at school - if school becomes "easier", she's likely to find things easier at home too just from being less exhausted by the whole thing.

With DS, there's a self esteem element too - just knowing he has this helps him to feel less like he's different for no reason. For example, he also has SPD (not quite dyspraxic, but comes close to the threshold) and knowing that helps him understand why, for example, he finds things like doing tricks on his bicycle or skateboard so much harder than his friends.

OP, my brother was an absolute nightmare child and incredibly narcissistic and angry. It was toxic for me (yet in many ways character building, I've made my peace with it).

In his 40s he has reflected that he wasn't getting what he needed from our parents in terms of boundaries.l - he feels very guilty about his behaviour. My parents left it all up to nurture, avoided any and all confrontation until they just got angry and had a pent up explosion. They avoided dishing out any criticism because of their own childhoods, they were very open about all of this to us.

I see a friend doing something very similar with her son, and he is just nasty and angry & reminds me of my brother. I suspect that non confrontational parenting is behind this and not setting firm boundaries and expectations.

That's just my experience. I'd buy some books and research it all, all the different parenting styles and see what strikes a chord. Good luck with it all.

*all up to nature- not nurture sorry!

SEN diagnosis does not really unlock a lot of help to be honest.

It does sound like there's a couple of dynamics going on:

Firstly she moans/is upset a lot, and you overcompensate to try to make her feel loved.

You might be better off accepting that this who she is at least at the moment. It isn't uncommon for ten year old girls to have a massive amount of fallings jn and out and drama (just ask any year 5 primary teacher). Ignore it as much as possible and try to keep it out of the house. She'll grow up past it in a couple of years.

If she has a meltdown about clothes whenever she has to leave the house, then possible solutions include: building in time for that, letting her completely choose her own clothes (but maybe having spares and a coat in a bag in the car or that you carry).

You say you have clothes with holes in to try to give her the best. Stop that. Rebalance the budget towards you. If she wants stuff you can't afford just tell her you can't afford it. At this age they can start to get a sense of money and I gave mine pocket money to give them the experience of making choices about money.

Mostly, step back.

It's her personality - I have one like this and he came that way. That doesn't mean you're off the hook, because your parenting will determine how she manages her tendencies as an adult, but fundamentally some people only see the world through their own eyes.

You're literally going to have to teach her moment by moment what she should be doing/saying and what the consequence to her is if she doesn't - e.g. if you say I hate your baking my feelings will be hurt and I won't want to throw this party for your anymore. You need to say mum, I would prefer a shop bought cake this year please if that's ok'.

Appealing to some in built sense of empathy for others won't work, because she is unlikely to care. Harsh but true in my experience.

She screamed about the cake initially but ate it quite willingly.

Why did she scream about the cake?

We have bought her nearly everything on her wishlist and yet she says no one was nice to her.

Why do you think she thought no one was nice to her? Was there an argument?

Thanks for sharing your experience @Nomdaplums. It’s very helpful and something I need to be really mindful of so that the eldest doesn’t resent us when he grows up.

I do believe there are things we can and must do to help her. I will look at the deeper trauma work to make sure I’m not passing anything on (though I do fear there must be inter-generational trauma in there somewhere).

Good tips @Octavia64 and many others too.

I wonder if there is something about low self esteem and anxiety going on here?

My mum would basically give me whatever I wanted if I made a fuss ... And that doesn't feel good. I was actually a very compliant child because I felt guilty and greedy if I asked for things and she gave in when I knew she didn't want to. I wonder if something similar is happening emotionally with your DD, even if the behaviour is different - that she does well at school because the rules are clear but struggles at home because she can kick up a fuss and get what she wants, but then feels bad about herself?

Being stressed about clothes being wrong before going out could be about sensory issues, but it could also be about anxiety - feeling like she has to present herself a certain way in order to be accepted (partly because she's ashamed about how she is behaving at home and needs to hide it)?

Similarly with friendships - if she doesn't like herself very much underneath, she could be getting in bother because:

• being a bit of a mean girl confirms her self concept of not being very nice
• being nice and kind and social also doesn't feel great because she thinks that if people knew what she was "really" like underneath that they would reject her.
• she's always looking out for signs of potential rejection (people being mean) - because she thinks that she doesn't deserve to be liked?
• Flitting between social groups would fit with this as well, because getting too close to people feels risky if it means they get to know the parts of herself that she tries to hide?

There's a lot of assumptions in that, so I could be way off base. But getting to the bottom of what's going on with her behavior probably needs getting to the bottom of what's going on for her emotionally.

Can you have a look at something like "How to talk so kids will listen?" It has a lot of good suggestions for having conversations about behaviour and emotions with older kids, and how to set boundaries that encourage the behaviour you want without being the tyrant that says "Do this or else consequences".