3 year old refusing to go to sleep

[GenericName123]

I’d really appreciate any advice with this as I’m at the end of my tether.

My 3 year old DD hates going to sleep. She’s always been low sleep needs (she dropped her nap at 18-20 months) and she finds sleeping boring. She wakes up at 7.15am (I usually wake her but sometimes she wakes earlier by herself). She has her bath at 7.30pm then a fairly typical bedtime routine (teeth, bath, PJs, story, lights out). I aim to get her to sleep by 8.30pm - I would prefer earlier but I’ve accepted she just doesn’t need a lot of sleep.

The problem comes once the light goes out. On a good day she tosses and turns and repeatedly asks for something to eat/ a wee/ a drink etc but does eventually go to sleep even if it’s later than I would like. On a bad night (like tonight) she kicks and thrashes, shouts and screams that she isn’t tired and repeatedly gets out of bed or sits up. This can go on for an hour or more. She regularly stays awake until 9pm or later, sometimes as late as 10pm. She can actually manage on that amount of sleep but I don’t think it’s good for her and it’s certainly not good for me either.

I have no idea how to handle it! We do all the usual things re wind down time before bed, keeping a routine, a dark room etc. She has busy days including lots of outdoor play but with some downtime time too. I think she’s just very active and would rather be reading or playing that sleeping.

When she’s thrashing about and getting out of bed etc I usually try to stay calm and just lift her back to lie down and say it’s time to go to sleep. But I can do this every 30-45 seconds for an hour. I do lose my temper sometimes and snap at her which I hate. When I have really had enough my DH takes over but I think that makes things worse as he tends to read with her to calm things down. She has never gone to sleep with anyone but me. I’m so tired of the whole situation. Everything else is great, she’s a gorgeous happy and active little girl, but this sleep situation is driving me mad.

Have you tried audiobooks/a Yoto? That really helped with a similar DC at that age.

I wouldn't lift her back into bed, I'd only do that if she left the room.

I have tried audiobooks but it just seemed to stimulate her rather than wind her down. It might be worth another shot though. How many nights do you think I’d need to try it for to see if it makes a difference?

Interesting you wouldn’t lift her back into bed. When I have tried letting her get out of bed in the past she does just roam around her room playing and messing about for ages. Would you just leave her as long as she wants to do that even if it’s an hour or more?

I’m wondering if she’s got her second wind at that time - mine did at 8pm.

Maybe start the wind down from 5pm. Absolutely no electronics after this time. No exciting play, just colouring, pottering around, loads and loads of just cuddling on the couch, ect.. then bath at 6:30, warm milk and toast at 7pm then bed.

It normally takes 3-4 days of them being aware a new habit is forming.

I have sympathy for you though. I used to sit outside my middle one’s door with a book. Once she knew I hadn’t gone back down stairs and would put her back to bed she settled down. She used to speak to me through the crack in the door - little swine 😂

I would just like to add - some kids are little monkeys. My youngest is nearly eight and her bed time routine is a lavender sleep temple rub, lavender pillow spritz, lavender sleep wrist rub and a lavender sleep foot rub whilst she is reading her school book. The room stinks like an old ladies handbag.

Does she need all that at her dads? Does she heck!

Have you asked her why she doesn’t want to sleep? My dd is also 3 and was like this, we sat her down when she was calm during the day and asked her what is was she didn’t like about sleeping and why she caused the fuss. Turns out she was scared of her room at night, meaning she was scared of the dark. She now sleeps with both her main light in and a nightlight and goes to bed fine, apart from the odd night like I’m sure every kid has.

Many moons ago now. But we did have that problem now and again. The solution was to be strapped into the push chair and walked up and down the dining room to sleep. Often the change in environment was enough to calm the reluctance to sleep. Most of the time sleep followed in the push chair but sometimes they asked to go back to bed and had self reset back to calm from that point onwards.

Adding to this that if you do any kind of tv before bed that should be cut.

I don't know, I'd give it a week maybe.

I'd definitely just leave her to it, but only let her have quiet stuff (books/soft toys) in her room. That's what I've done with mine, as long as they're being quiet and staying in their bedroom I'm not going to fight them into their beds, it would just prolong everything. They wear themselves out eventually and at least you're not having to be in there.

@BuckFadger just out of curiosity did you do that at age 3? We haven't used a pushchair for about a year now and don't even have one anymore! (My son is coming up to 3.5 soon).

I posted something much like this a few weeks ago and someone suggested bringing bedtime right forward. Like 5.30 forward. I was skeptical but it worked! Only for about a week, then it's been creeping later but overall she's going to sleep about 2 hours earlier than she was.

Before I tried the ridiculously early night I had luck putting her to bed with a night light and a book to look at, or an audio player so she's getting rest and I don't need to be in there getting frustrated.

Also, if she's coming out of the room, or insisting you come back in all the time, I'd have a proper chat during the day about it, framing it that you won't be able to do so many fun things in the day if you're too tired and you need your rest too/need to get on with things in the evening. And then do a short reminder at night eg 'this is the third time you've asked to come to the toilet and haven't done a wee, do you remember how we said you need to try and rest so I can rest too ' or similar.

I'd also talk through clear boundaries and stick to them. So, for me, drinks are fine but they have a water bottle and can reach for it themselves. There's no food after we go upstairs.

@Hugosmaid Does the lavender work? My ds5 is not against sleeping - at least he doesn't declare it a 'waste of his time' like eating. But we're still co sleeping as he doesn't sleep through and wakes way too early...

it doesn’t make her sleep longer! I have an early riser which is getting worse due to the very light mornings. Honestly between her and my cats I could scream

gah ! Kids and bloody sleep 🙈

Thanks so much for all the advice, I really appreciate it.

I have tried a much earlier night thinking she might be overtired but when I have tried that it seems to make things much worse as she really isn’t tired so she gets very cross about it. She is very stubborn so once she’s decided she’s not going to sleep she will stick to that and bedtimes just extended to 2/3 hours. @Beansandneedles How quickly did you see a difference with your little one? Maybe I need to try it again for a few days at a time.

I have talked to her about it and she says she’s not frightened, she just thinks sleeping is boring and she can’t do fun things like reading or playing whilst she’s asleep. I think it’s just her testing boundaries as she was a bit like this with potty training as she’d go if it was her idea but refuse if I suggested it. I have also talked to her about why sleep is important and that she (and I) need our rest, but I haven’t spelled out that we can’t do things if she doesn’t sleep. Mainly because she’s very active and I need to get her out of the house so would hate to withdraw activities from her - that’s just a punishment for me!

I did try with a nightlight but she just wanted to play with it - I only did it for a few nights as I didn’t see it making a difference so maybe I should have stuck with it for longer.

I think I will try letting her potter about in her room whilst I sit outside. At least then I won’t get so frustrated with her and it might give her back a feeling of control and cut down some of the fighting. I’ll try audiobooks again too.

Thanks again for all the suggestions!

The other thing to experiment with is waking her up much earlier and see if that helps break the boring association because she'll actually be tired that night. I read once if you try something new you have to do it three days in a row to see if it has any merit at all and then if not don't permanently discount it. It could be useful in X weeks or months.

I think a lot of the sleep avoidance is to keep your attention. But if bedtime goes on too long they get wound up again!
Try and keep calm but accept it's going to take time. We didn't have the thrashing about but DD was very very good at keeping me chatting. We still chat a lot at bedtime.
Only offer very bland drinks and snacks if hunger/thirst is claimed.
Don't go down the avenue of excessive rituals around sleeping - it's mostly tactics and time wasting. DD started putting her toys to bed - they all had special places/blankets and it was escalating! She was furious when I cottoned on and limited the numbers!
Reassurance I think is key. Sleeping alone is a bit scary sometimes and some kids are quite spooked by the sensation of falling asleep - DD told me later she was afraid she might not wake up.
I generally have the view that bedrooms are for sleeping and if she really couldn't sleep, would get her out of bed and do something else for maybe half an hour - watch TV or on a warm evening go outside. It helped calm her down and be more ready to sleep - but might not work for everyone.

Why would you sit outside? Just leave and get on with things -have a monitor if you're worried about her leaving the room.

I'm not talking about withdrawing activities, just the natural consequences of her needing you with her all evening or you not getting enough sleep. So you wouldn't have time to prep lunches and bags the night before, so she has to amuse herself while you do it in the morning and you have less time on your trip out. Or you don't have the energy to do loads of playing with her at the playground because you're exhausted and need a sit down. That sort of thing. It's not a punishment, it's being honest about the impact of what's happening and why it isn't good for the family, and choosing some solutions together.

She does sometimes settle more quickly if she’s had an early morning wake up so I can give that a shot. I usually let her sleep until 7.15 as I get 45 mins in the morning to do things myself that way, plus I think at least she’s getting extra rest which she needs.

The 3 day idea is a really useful one, thanks. That gives me something to aim for when I’m trying some of these suggestions.

I think you might be right that she doesn’t like the feeling of going to sleep. I had a chat about it with her this morning and she said it’s “too hard” for her to go to sleep which I think means that she doesn’t know what to actually do rather than her not being sleepy. Over the months/years I have tried talking her through meditation-type stories with the light off which helped for a bit so maybe I need to revisit that with her

She absolutely will leave her room if I don’t sit outside. She tries to leave even with me there in the room with her and when I have tried leaving the room she immediately gets up to follow me (again this can go on repeatedly for an hour or more).

I take your point about showing her the impact on the family. I’ll maybe be a bit more open with her about that. She’s been quite tired and grumpy this morning and I told her that’s why she needs her rest but I don’t know how much she really makes the connection. She has lots of energy reserves, she doesn’t even sleep in the car on long journeys unless she’s unwell or totally exhausted. But I will try and make the point about me not having time/energy to play with her as that might land better

The cat stretching meditation is quite nice for little ones.

Personally I’d wake her up at 6.30am and start bedtime at 6.30pm and see what happens. I’d also tell her you’re fine with her being awake she just has to stay in bed , leaves books by her bed if needed for her to look at. Maybe the lack of physical movement will help her drop off again once woken.

My 3 year old is a low sleep needs child too. He sounds very like your DD. Bedtimes were exactly as you described but now we go to bed later and it's so much easier, I think he just wasn't tired/ready for sleep. We have a lovely bedtime routine now, with lots of stories and songs, and he's usually asleep by 9-9.30pm. It does mean that I have little to no evening myself but I don't dread bed time any more which helps!
What worked for us may or may not work for you but sending lots of sleepy thoughts to you!

Just leave her to it.

Leave some picture books in there for her to look at and a cup of water of she needs it then go.

Don't sit outside as she'll know you're then and act up more

We had this, I found koko sleep on Spotify helpful and kept popping out to 'use the toilet' etc.
It is exhausting, I hear you. I'd try waking her up earlier and go for an earlier bedtime

My DD was using us as a way to keep herself awake and it was taking over an hour of her crawling from her pillows to our laps for ‘one more cuddle’ etc so we decide to leave her in her room to settle herself. I have a 7 yo with ASD (and DH works late 3 nights a week so he can do school runs as I start work earlier) who I have to sort out too so when it was taking over an hour his bedtime was getting later and he needs to routine.

She has her stories and 5 cuddles and kisses (the last one is magic so it lasts until morning) then her snuggly and we say night night I love you, see you in the morning. We go and sit on our bed and read until she hasn’t come out for 10 mins or so. If she comes out we say, it’s bedtime, take her back to bed, give her a kiss and say night night, I love you and repeat. We usually have no more than one reappearance, some nights she can do 5 or 6 but it’s rare now. She knows she won’t get anywhere but it’s all kept calm and just ‘come on baby, it’s bedtime.’

She has a night light that goes off after an hour and an audiobook. It took a few weeks and we still have the odd night where she’s up several times but they are rare.