3 year old refusing to go to sleep

[GenericName123]

I’d really appreciate any advice with this as I’m at the end of my tether.

My 3 year old DD hates going to sleep. She’s always been low sleep needs (she dropped her nap at 18-20 months) and she finds sleeping boring. She wakes up at 7.15am (I usually wake her but sometimes she wakes earlier by herself). She has her bath at 7.30pm then a fairly typical bedtime routine (teeth, bath, PJs, story, lights out). I aim to get her to sleep by 8.30pm - I would prefer earlier but I’ve accepted she just doesn’t need a lot of sleep.

The problem comes once the light goes out. On a good day she tosses and turns and repeatedly asks for something to eat/ a wee/ a drink etc but does eventually go to sleep even if it’s later than I would like. On a bad night (like tonight) she kicks and thrashes, shouts and screams that she isn’t tired and repeatedly gets out of bed or sits up. This can go on for an hour or more. She regularly stays awake until 9pm or later, sometimes as late as 10pm. She can actually manage on that amount of sleep but I don’t think it’s good for her and it’s certainly not good for me either.

I have no idea how to handle it! We do all the usual things re wind down time before bed, keeping a routine, a dark room etc. She has busy days including lots of outdoor play but with some downtime time too. I think she’s just very active and would rather be reading or playing that sleeping.

When she’s thrashing about and getting out of bed etc I usually try to stay calm and just lift her back to lie down and say it’s time to go to sleep. But I can do this every 30-45 seconds for an hour. I do lose my temper sometimes and snap at her which I hate. When I have really had enough my DH takes over but I think that makes things worse as he tends to read with her to calm things down. She has never gone to sleep with anyone but me. I’m so tired of the whole situation. Everything else is great, she’s a gorgeous happy and active little girl, but this sleep situation is driving me mad.

Have you tried having a crazy 20mins or so before winding down for bed? Jumping, carrying and throwing things, rolling her up in a blanket burrito? Maybe she needs lots of sensory input before bed. I think it's called vestibular stimulation? Maybe give it a Google

I remember this stage. Mine never slept more than 10hrs in 24hrs. He finds it boring. Staying out all day and using up all his energy helped. Moving bed time earlier meant he woke bouncing earlier. But when I accepted that he just doesn’t need that much sleep, and pushed bedtime back, bed times were no longer a struggle. One thing I did notice was that he started appreciating sleep more after getting a nasty cold.

That’s interesting, I do this, didn’t know it was a thing. It part of our bonding before bed.

this would drive me nuts too! The joys of parenting - wine time?

Does your little one know how to put herself asleep easily? Has she always slept in her own bed and has she always put he self to sleep? Was she rocked to sleep or pushed in a pram? Did she co sleep? And what age did this stop it so? I’m wondering if she not 100% confident regulating her sleep emotions and she has to be exhausted before falling asleep.

When she goes to bed play some audible stories. Darkish room.

Mine used to go to sleep no problem but wake for the day at 5 amblike clockwork so it was exhausting at the other end. They eventually grew out of it.

One thing I recall is that if they were ever cranky at bedtime and couldn't get to sleep is it usually meant they had threadworms which were itching them. You could try ruling that out.

I had audiobooks playing all night every night for years to keep my DD1 in bed. She just never slept through. Her vocabulary was absolutely amazing though as a result.

I'm sure it's not, and I don't want to worry you, but double check for frontal lobe epilepsy. My daughter (aged 12) developed this and leg thrashing at nights, especially when falling asleep, and screaming was actually her having seizures, which we (and a number of medics) mistook for panic attacks. When the medication kicked in, it stopped and she is now seizure free.

I don't have any kids (currently pregnant so I'm taking in all the info now!) yet - but I've seen people recommend being completely boring when the kid comes out of their room. No talking to them, just silently putting them back into bed and walking out. Over and over, until they get it. Not sure how it would work in reality though!

Reading this is like reading about my own daughter 😂
We gave in and let her be as long as she stayed in her room. There's no loud toys in there, just books and her Tonies box. At first when she realised we weren't putting her to bed she stayed up playing with teddies and books for an hour or more but after a little while that time got shorter and rarely went over an hour. Can't remember how long it took but a couple of weeks at least.

She's 5 now and happily sits with her light and book for half an hour then puts a Tonie figure on and falls asleep while the story is playing.

Thanks everyone, it’s been so reassuring to hear people with similar experiences! There’s definitely been some good advice and food for thought.

A couple of PP have mentioned that they have low sleep needs kids and I think that is a big part of the issue with my DD. I do often believe her when she says she isn’t tired and I think sometimes I’m just projecting my exhaustion onto her when she’s actually quite happy! My MIL is also a total night owl and is up until 2am most nights so I wonder if DD has also inherited some of that from her?

Someone asked about her sleep when she was younger. She has never slept without me and I breastfed her to sleep until she was 2. I know a lot of people will say that I’ve created bad sleep habits but actually it was more the other way round - she’s always had trouble sleeping, she was never once “drowsy but awake”, doesn’t show sleep signs etc. She dropped her naps entirely at 18 months and by 20 months wouldn’t even nap on long car journeys. So I fed her to sleep just to keep my sanity until I really couldn’t stand it any more. She does mainly sleep through the night though and settles herself once she’s asleep. But yes I do think she probably doesn’t have a lot of positive associations about going to sleep and she hasn’t learnt to regulate herself then so it does make sense she’s finding it tricky.

I have had another go with audiobooks and it has helped in terms of her not needing me to be with her, but she hasn’t been going to sleep any earlier. I think she’s engrossed in the stories and not switching off but it might help once she’s more familiar with the stories so I’ll stick with it for a bit longer.

Someone also suggested trying a later night. I think I will do that as when I tried an earlier night it just made things much worse. And the mad 20 mins might be worth a shot too. She is a very physical child and she does like tight hugs so it might help. She’s not really a puzzle and colouring in kind of girl so wind down time isn’t always easy (she loves being read to though).

Also just to say she is wonderful - she’s confident, stubborn, strong willed, clever and determined and she gets by on very little sleep. As an adult she might take the world by storm, it’s just as a 3 year old it’s hard work!!

Thank you so much

I could have written this myself OP, and while lots of the advice you are getting is well meaning, I don’t think many parents fully understand what it’s like to have a low sleep need child.

I was always told it would improve once school started, however after almost a year I can safely say it hasn’t. In fact it got significantly worse for a while. We spoke to the school and they do what they can now to reduce the cognitive load. Current working theory is that she has racing thoughts at night, but I also know she hates the feeling of falling asleep.

My advice to you would be to find a system that works for your family to accommodate her low sleep drive. Don’t try to fight it, it will make you all miserable. We have recently introduced the approach that DD has a bath and usual bedtime routine at normal time, and goes to her room around 7:15 where she can play quietly. At around 8:45 we put her to bed. This is the closest we can get to having an actual evening. She’s old enough now though that she’s aware she has sleep trouble and we can explain to her that this is the time she would usually fall asleep (it isn’t, she used to fall asleep much later), so she won’t have to lie in bed awake as we are putting her to bed later, and she really likes that. I think she’d have struggled with that concept at 3, and we’d have also struggled to keep her in her room at that age too.

Do what works for you, but we found that the earlier we put her to bed, the later she stays up. It’s like she settles in to the concept of being awake. The key is to find that sweet spot where she’s tired enough to sleep, but not overtired.

Also, we have a wake-up light (not a sleep training light but one of those alarm clocks that simulates sunrise) which is set to full brightness for 7am. Sometimes we let her sleep until 8am latest if we know she’s really really tired, but at least with that bright light on even behind closed eyes, it keeps her body clock under control and I think this has helped to stop things spiralling.

Sorry none of this is going to change your life, but it is what it is. If you can find a traditional Chinese doctor, it might be worth a chat with one. I haven’t done it yet, but I know they take a holistic approach to the body and energy flows etc. All sounds very woo woo but at this stage anything is worth a try!

Good luck!

GenericName123 your literally describing my DS with bedtime I’m interested if you find something that works as he’s almost 7 and still have same nighttime issues.

this seems late for a 3 year old. Are they maybe getting a second wind or over tired? I’d be tempted to wind down at 6.30 for bed at 7 Have you tried building exercise into the routine- a walk after tea maybe?

you know what helped me, I recorded myself reading a long calm bedtime story. My kid listens to it every night, i even edited some quiet bedtime music over it she now has to listen to it everynight as she loves it

also i have something i call chill time, Where for 45 mins- 1 hr before sleep, they have to play or chill in there room with the lights off, so its just slightly dimmed light as its preparing for bed

Children cannot understand that anyone else has a different experience of the world to themselves until they are almost 4, so explaining the impact on the family will be physically impossible for her to understand. Google this - there’s many studies around it.

Have you tried getting in bed with her and cuddling her to sleep? Letting her know you won’t leave her (until she falls asleep - but you don’t need to outright say that). So many children of this age fight sleep because they don’t want to be left alone. I was one of these kids who said they “weren’t tired” and my mum took me back to bed so many times every night. It drove her crazy apparently. I really resent her for not just staying with me. I’d be careful about forcing independent sleep on your DD as the memory of it lasts.

Thank you for this, lots of this resonates with our situation. People told me that she would sleep better when she started nursery but that hasn’t made any difference. And earlier nights seem to result in later sleep times.

There’s lots to think about there with the light clock etc. You’re right fighting it isn’t working so we will need to find a way to work with her so she’s getting enough rest and I’m getting some down time too

I should have been clearer, that is what I do with her. I get in her bed, read with her, turn the light off and cuddle or stoke her back etc. Depending on her mood she will still stand up, get out of bed, try to go downstairs etc even with me waiting for her in bed.

My middle one was a nightmare with sleeping. No way would she fall asleep in her cot or bed. I think it was more not wanting to be on her own. In the end we turned the TV off, put all toys away so there was absolutely nothing to do and ignored her (not completely- but not over engaging, being drawn into play). We just kept saying that it was time to go to sleep. Initially it took about an hour, after a few days she’d just lay on the sofa and be asleep in a few minutes. When she was sound asleep we put her to bed. By the time she was about 4 she went to bed happily at about 7.30.

In regards to yoto type thing - can you try a more “boring” one?!
my five year old loves his tonie box BUT the “exciting” ones like Spidey and his friends he won’t fall asleep to, whereas the “boring” ones (which he still likes!) with facts etc (we have a whale and dinosaur one) he tends to nod off to…

also, have you tried her bedtime earlier? There can be that sweet spot that you’re missing as 8.30pm is too late?
mine are 5,3,1 and we get them into bed for 7, then usually asleep by 7.30…
although they also aren’t big sleepers and are usually awake 6/6.30 latest!

I think yiu should take her hand and lead her back to bed every single time. No speech except, 'Bed'. No conversation. She needs to learn to self settle and allowing her to play freely in her room is not going to give her that ability.

I could have wrote this myself OP. We’ve recently started putting our 3yo in the pram and taking DC on a long walk at 7pm with the dog and she has fallen asleep on the walk and we’ve managed to transfer her from pram straight into bed

See, I would say that not having to stay is a massive win! I found it was a complete game changer. I don't think you can force someone to sleep, but they can learn that it's just quiet/rest time.

What you're saying doesn't make any sense. It's not about understanding a different experience of the world. It's seeing that they have less time playing with mummy in the morning as she has to do the chores she didn't have time for because she had to spend all evening with the DC.

Mine were perfectly able to understand this at this age, I guess they must have been physical wonders. Or maybe there isn't a magic brain switch that happens at 4 as you seem to suggest.