Page 3 | Friend who went through DV now faced with homelessness and losing her kids

ConcernedCitizenUK · 2023-12-04T21:41:21+00:00

Hi everyone, I am supporting a friend who is really struggling and we don't know where to turn to for advice and support. Trying my luck here. She went through an abusive marriage and has 2 small kids. She left him and got a non molestation order on him and went to the police. They had a council house but it was in his name, so she left and went to a council to declare homelessness. Her previous council home was a nice 2 or 3 bedroom house but the council offered her a small council flat. Unfortunately she received some really bad advice that she should be firm and refuse the property and the council will get her a bigger house. She did that and the council banned her from being on the housing list and declared her "intentionally homeless". She had a social worker to support her and also spoke to her local MP for help. But the MP seemed more interested in trying to take the children off her than help her (a tory MP). The social worker organised hotels for a few weeks and tried to change the councils minds and then now have said they will no longer fund hotels and if she doesnt find housing by tomorrow they will take her kids and put them in foster care. I have tried contacting journalists, womens aid charities like Refuge, Womens aid etc. They dont even respond. Womens refuge charities will not help, since she is not in immediate danger, as she left her ex a while ago now. I have no idea where left to turn to get her help. I am talking to all these people on her behalf and she is also talking to citizens advice etc and we cant find any help at all. Any suggestions on what to do or who can help?

Bobtheamazinggingerdog · 05/12/2023 05:35

They won't take her children into care rather than house her. It just doesn't make sense legally. Firstly they can't take them without her consent, without a court order. There is no way social services would go to court to ask for a care order just because a parent is homeless. Couldn't happen. Local authorities have a duty to accommodate homeless children with their parents under section 17 of the children act where they are not entitled to accommodation under the housing act. That applies to NRPF families as well as intentionally homeless. I'm sorry but this just isn't correct.

Bobtheamazinggingerdog · 05/12/2023 05:36

RachelSTG · 05/12/2023 04:59

Surely a small flat without a abusive husband is far better than 2 bedroom nice house with abusive husband? I don't understand why she didn't jump at her offer of flat when fist offered?

She clearly didn't understand the situation she was in and foolishly listened to people who know nothing rather than those who were trying to help her.

Bobtheamazinggingerdog · 05/12/2023 05:38

Copperoliverbear · 04/12/2023 23:42

Can she not apply for universal credit to pay private rent

Private rent is extremely difficult to find if you don't have well paid full time work. Added to that universal credit rent contributions are capped at a certain level and actual rents are often up to 50% higher than universal credit will pay. It's beyond some people's ability to get into private rental in the first place let alone afford to pay it.

Chouxpastryishard · 05/12/2023 06:00

It doesn’t sound like your friend is giving you all the facts . Either that or she is misunderstanding things. I’m wondering why she isn’t being more proactive herself and leaving you to do so much for her?

kkneat · 05/12/2023 07:11

Your friend can apply as homeless to another borough. You don’t need a local connection if you are in fear of violence in the borough you have come from. She then needs to request emergency accommodation from the borough. If it’s a London borough they’ll start saying they’ll place her out of London to put her off. Also has she appealed against the intentionality decision? Her appeal would be on the grounds that she acted in good faith. Also social worker won’t/can’t take the children if she’s caring for them well expect social worker is saying this so that she will take any private rented. She needs some specialist housing advice from as suggested Shelter or Mary Ward legal centre or another legal advice centre. She could ask a solicitor for a free 30 minute consultation needs to find one that specialises in housing law

ChateauDuMont · 05/12/2023 07:19

Shelter will probably only suggest that someone she knows or is related to, rents a property in their name, someone with good credit, no kids or pets etc and then they illegally sublet to your friend.

That's their usual unhelpful advice in dire situations.

Rjahdhdvd · 05/12/2023 07:21

Get a solicitor; they can’t take her kids due to her being homeless and a judge will rip into a local authority who try this

Bobtheamazinggingerdog · 05/12/2023 07:31

Rjahdhdvd · 05/12/2023 07:21

Get a solicitor; they can’t take her kids due to her being homeless and a judge will rip into a local authority who try this

They wouldn't even try it. It's not possible. There are so many steps to go through before applying for a court order and it wouldn't even pass the first step.

SiouxsieSiouxStiletto · 05/12/2023 07:35

kkneat · 05/12/2023 07:11

Your friend can apply as homeless to another borough. You don’t need a local connection if you are in fear of violence in the borough you have come from. She then needs to request emergency accommodation from the borough. If it’s a London borough they’ll start saying they’ll place her out of London to put her off. Also has she appealed against the intentionality decision? Her appeal would be on the grounds that she acted in good faith. Also social worker won’t/can’t take the children if she’s caring for them well expect social worker is saying this so that she will take any private rented. She needs some specialist housing advice from as suggested Shelter or Mary Ward legal centre or another legal advice centre. She could ask a solicitor for a free 30 minute consultation needs to find one that specialises in housing law

TBF though being offered accomodation out of London might not be the end of the world. I work in a city in the Midlands and we have a fair few Londoners who have moved up like this and often, their families soon follow when they realise they are given a 3 bedroom house with a garden and everything is so much cheaper than London.

Bobtheamazinggingerdog · 05/12/2023 07:36

kkneat · 05/12/2023 07:11

Your friend can apply as homeless to another borough. You don’t need a local connection if you are in fear of violence in the borough you have come from. She then needs to request emergency accommodation from the borough. If it’s a London borough they’ll start saying they’ll place her out of London to put her off. Also has she appealed against the intentionality decision? Her appeal would be on the grounds that she acted in good faith. Also social worker won’t/can’t take the children if she’s caring for them well expect social worker is saying this so that she will take any private rented. She needs some specialist housing advice from as suggested Shelter or Mary Ward legal centre or another legal advice centre. She could ask a solicitor for a free 30 minute consultation needs to find one that specialises in housing law

Unfortunately if she has turned down emergency accommodation she may not be considered in priority need in another area.

kkneat · 05/12/2023 07:45

She would have priority need as she has children. When I worked in housing local authorities had to provide emergency accommodation while they are investigating the housing application, I think this still stands and they would not be able to make an intentionally homeless decision same day (the new borough that is). Also check with a housing solicitor I think she may be able to get legal aid

SiouxsieSiouxStiletto · 05/12/2023 07:47

kkneat · 05/12/2023 07:45

She would have priority need as she has children. When I worked in housing local authorities had to provide emergency accommodation while they are investigating the housing application, I think this still stands and they would not be able to make an intentionally homeless decision same day (the new borough that is). Also check with a housing solicitor I think she may be able to get legal aid

She has refused the housing that was offered though?

Bobtheamazinggingerdog · 05/12/2023 07:47

kkneat · 05/12/2023 07:45

She would have priority need as she has children. When I worked in housing local authorities had to provide emergency accommodation while they are investigating the housing application, I think this still stands and they would not be able to make an intentionally homeless decision same day (the new borough that is). Also check with a housing solicitor I think she may be able to get legal aid

It does depend. Once the emergency relief duty has been discharged that's it. Another LA might accommodate despite her having turned down emergency accommodation elsewhere but they will certainly investigate her situation and may decide they don't owe her a relief duty because she turned one down already.

WinchSparkle80 · 05/12/2023 07:53

Try emailing Caroline Noakes she might be a tory MP but chairs a women committee of something or other… she also always replies.. nothing to lose.

bellac11 · 05/12/2023 07:57

Lots of this story doesnt ring true Im afraid.

Chockdavis · 05/12/2023 08:00

This won’t be the full story and if the MP is involved it sounds like she’s done the usual ‘can’t get what I want so I’ll make a huge fuss til I get it’.

She can go to Refuge. give them a ring and they should find her a spot.

However this made me chuckle-

SW needs to provide a letter to housing and SW needs to be confident and firm with housing that they have a duty to house the family.

Er no. Bullying social workers don’t get to throw out the legislation to save them some work. Never stop trying though!

Original poster

ConcernedCitizenUK · 05/12/2023 08:08

clareykb · 04/12/2023 23:07

The bit about the kids being taken in to care doesn't add up. Social Workers (I am one ) can't just remove children in this situation we would either have to go to court, get police protection (if children are iminently at risk) or section 20 which is a voluntary arrangement that she would need to agree to. For this to happen it would be likely that the children would have been on a child protection plan for several months and Mum would have been told to get legal advice.

I would check exactly what the situation is there so you can support in the best way and so you friend has understood what is happening.

The children are not on any protection plan and there is no court order in place to remove the children.

If you're a social worker then you'll be aware that social services have a duty of care towards children that a child cannot be left homeless, but that duty of care does not include the mother.

Go and ask your colleagues what happens in cases of "intentional homelessness" when a mother and children are faced with imminent homelessness.

They offer Foster care as an "interim solution" whilst the mother sorts out accommodation.

OP posts:

SiouxsieSiouxStiletto · 05/12/2023 08:09

bellac11 · 05/12/2023 07:57

Lots of this story doesnt ring true Im afraid.

I agree. I think you have to have a think about how much time your are willing to spend on helping her out when you've either not been given the full story or she's consistently making such poor choices for herself and her DC.

Original poster

ConcernedCitizenUK · 05/12/2023 08:12

Chockdavis · 05/12/2023 08:00

This won’t be the full story and if the MP is involved it sounds like she’s done the usual ‘can’t get what I want so I’ll make a huge fuss til I get it’.

She can go to Refuge. give them a ring and they should find her a spot.

However this made me chuckle-

SW needs to provide a letter to housing and SW needs to be confident and firm with housing that they have a duty to house the family.

Er no. Bullying social workers don’t get to throw out the legislation to save them some work. Never stop trying though!

I've given the "full story". What else do you think is missing from the story?

And I've already mentioned that she tried refuge and I did also. I was literally left on hold for an hour and then they hung up.

The social workers made no real effort to pressure the council to reverse their decision and give her another chance, so don't worry. The council is safe from "SW bullying", in her local authority at least

OP posts:

Tinkeytonkoldfruit · 05/12/2023 08:13

This just doesn't ring true - there is more to this than being shared. Firstly social care will typically do anything to keep children with their parents. The local authority can't just take kids into foster care. Either the parent has to consent to it or the threshold of significant harm needs to be met for a Judge to agree an interim care order. Merely homelessness would not pass that test if there was the potential for the LA to circumvent that by providing accomodation under S17 which they have a responsibility to do. Moreover care is super expensive and no LA would prefer to pay for that then a hotel as interim measure for parent and child.

bellac11 · 05/12/2023 08:14

ConcernedCitizenUK · 05/12/2023 08:08

The children are not on any protection plan and there is no court order in place to remove the children.

If you're a social worker then you'll be aware that social services have a duty of care towards children that a child cannot be left homeless, but that duty of care does not include the mother.

Go and ask your colleagues what happens in cases of "intentional homelessness" when a mother and children are faced with imminent homelessness.

They offer Foster care as an "interim solution" whilst the mother sorts out accommodation.

Show quote history

This is absolute rubbish

Have you any idea of how many children there are homeless up and down the country, bedding down with friends and family, living from sofa to sofa, whether homeless or intentionally homeless

Children are not taken into care because they are homeless, you cant get foster placements for children that are being removed from separation via the courts, placements are hard to find, there isnt the capacity to use them like this (and it wouldnt be legal)

Either this is not happening or your friend is spinning you a line.

Original poster

ConcernedCitizenUK · 05/12/2023 08:15

Not really. She made one bad choice and now she's doing whatever she can to remedy it and that's why I'm posting here. I'm trying to look at every avenue of routes that can be taken to help.

I suspect some people in this thread simply don't empathise with her because of their outlook on single mothers and people on benefits etc.

But everything about this story "adds up". I have all the facts. I've been involved in the case for months. I have a lot of evidence of everything on my phone.

OP posts:

bellac11 · 05/12/2023 08:16

Social care can sometimes fund short term hotel stays but ultimately the duty lies with housing, they have to house her temporarily while they complete a homelessness assessment which looks at their longer term duty

However within that, are all sorts of other options such as renting privately with UC and HB, using the councils rent deposit scheme or asking social care for the rent deposit and first months rent, asking social care to support with the top up under S17

She may have to live in a bed sit in order for her UC/HB to cover the rent, such is life

And thats why the story doesnt make sense

15PiecesOfFlair · 05/12/2023 08:22

I'm empathetic (but she isn't being "punished for making a mistake". This is the consequences of that mistake. That's what a mistake is - a bad choice that has bad consequences, it wasn't a test you can ask to do again.)

It's awful that you can't find help on the "usual" channels. Can Shelter help?

TheYearOfSmallThings · 05/12/2023 08:26

Firstly the children would not be taken from her in these circumstances, not would any MP (including Tory) want this, if things are as you describe.

Secondly the family and friends who gave her bad advice need to house her for a short while. She will then be able to show that they are over crowded and this time obviously accept the flat.

Thirdly if she is now willing to accept a flat, the social worker should be trying to facilitate this regardless of whether she is classed as IH, because clearly they will be getting her a council property in the near future. I'm surprised they haven't offered some (probably shitty or far away) temporary housing. What age are the children? And is the suggestion that they should live with their father? The only way this makes sense is if they are older.