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Original poster

4 year old violent at school

59 replies

FernBb · 04/12/2023 05:16

Hi all,

I’m having a real hard time and wanted some advice.

At home, my son is highly energetic, communicates well and is kind and loving. But it’s just me and him at home so I don’t know if that has a play in this.

In school, which he started this September, he has hurt another child or member of staff every day, runs out of the classroom when asked to do something he doesn’t want to do, doesn’t share and is now facing exclusion (at 4 years old!!!) because his behaviour is so unpredictable and violent.
I’m being told teachers don’t want to work with him and other parents want to fight me cause they’re sick of their child coming home and saying mine hit them or bit them.

The school SENCO told me to get him assessed and apply for LIFT but these incidents keep stacking up in the mean time and it’s appearing more and more like they don’t want to wait for these things to be available.
The headteacher told me that an assessment and LIFT won’t help and they ‘can’t keep having students knock out teachers’

I’m constantly being asked what to do but firstly, this child they’re describing isn’t the one I deal with so I don’t know how to help from experience, secondly, I have been researching like crazy and everything just says what I can do at home if they act out but they don’t act out at home so I don’t know?!

Can anyone give any advice please? I’m exhausted and anxious all the time and feel so useless!

OP posts:
curaçao · 04/12/2023 05:19

What does your son say about it?

flowerchild2000 · 04/12/2023 05:29

Yes I agree with pp, he communicates well, so what has he told the teachers in the moment, and what has he told you? I think the school needs to take more responsibility as this is a very common issue, they can't be that helpless. It sounds very dramatic for them to say he's knocking them out. I mean really. Has he ever shown this behavior at a park with other kids? Does he spend a lot of time on screens at home? It does sound like an impossible situation for a child so young. I hope you get some support soon.

flowerchild2000 · 04/12/2023 05:50

I don't know if this will make you feel better or not, but one of my kids was a biter. One time she was dealing with a bully twice her age and 5x her size and she bit him so hard it left a large round blood blister. Every time she was standing up for herself. Luckily I witnessed it most of the time so I knew why it was happening. I know how it feels to have angry mothers coming for me. I think it's important to validate their feelings but stay on your child's side at the same time. I only half chastised mine so not to discourage her from standing up for herself, especially as a female. But we had a lot of talks about other ways to resolve conflict over the years. It's a very tricky thing to balance out. She's 13 now and only mildly vindictive lol. I know it's really stressful, but you will figure it out. The younger they are the more difficult it is too. But I promise there's an answer there for you, it's just a matter of finding it. So don't despair!

RedHelenB · 04/12/2023 06:32

Does he always get his own way at home? And if he doesn't, how does that go?

curaçao · 04/12/2023 06:42

flowerchild2000 · 04/12/2023 05:50

I don't know if this will make you feel better or not, but one of my kids was a biter. One time she was dealing with a bully twice her age and 5x her size and she bit him so hard it left a large round blood blister. Every time she was standing up for herself. Luckily I witnessed it most of the time so I knew why it was happening. I know how it feels to have angry mothers coming for me. I think it's important to validate their feelings but stay on your child's side at the same time. I only half chastised mine so not to discourage her from standing up for herself, especially as a female. But we had a lot of talks about other ways to resolve conflict over the years. It's a very tricky thing to balance out. She's 13 now and only mildly vindictive lol. I know it's really stressful, but you will figure it out. The younger they are the more difficult it is too. But I promise there's an answer there for you, it's just a matter of finding it. So don't despair!

Edited

@flowerchild2000 wow! How old was ypur dd ansWhere was this happening rhat you could observe the incident but not intervene with the child 5x her size?

autienotnaughty · 04/12/2023 06:49

Start the process for assessment if he does have additional needs he may need additional support in school. Ask what school are doing to support him/safeguard others. Does he get sensory breaks? Is he managing in the big group. What's causing meltdowns? Ie what's happening before he attacks?

Would a reduced timetable help for now?

How is he at home? Do you go parks, soft play? Op's to play with other? How is he?

Have you asked him what's happening?

Either he's -

Neurodivergent and may need additional support to attend school.

Struggling with transition into school/high need and may need some help to settle

Or the school has poor behaviour management and is not a good fit for him

Ostryga · 04/12/2023 06:53

Did he go to nursery/childminder? What are the consequences for bad behaviour at home?

You do need to start the ball rolling re assessment as this should help in the future. However you need to work with the school now to get control of this situation, it’s not fair on the other children or the teachers. Can you homeschool until an assessment and a plan is put in place?

Overthebow · 04/12/2023 06:56

Did he go to nursery? What was he like there? If not then it’s s huge transition to school for him so may be contributing to the issue. The school is right that they can’t keep having these incidents, it’s not fair on the staff or other children, but what have they been doing to try and solve it? are there support staff who could work with him in a separate area?

flowerchild2000 · 04/12/2023 07:07

curaçao · 04/12/2023 06:42

@flowerchild2000 wow! How old was ypur dd ansWhere was this happening rhat you could observe the incident but not intervene with the child 5x her size?

Show quote history

Oh yeah that sounds bad, it was a friend's child, almost always the biting incidences we're with friends' children which was really hard because my friend would be outraged but I was upset they never noticed their child was always the instigator and mine was in defense mode (usually it was ages 2-5 so harmless situations). But with the big kid, mine was probly 7 and the bigger kid was maybe 11 (not twice her age I guess but older and definitely much larger) and they were upstairs playing Just Dance, and I forgot what happened but she had her limit and couldn't take it anymore and bit him. They came running downstairs where I was talking to his mom. I only felt a little sorry for him, it was a bad bite but he did have it coming! Thankfully that was the last time she did that and I also cut off that friendship soon after. This is definitely an aside and not much to do with OP's issues. I just wanted to offer her some encouragement that I know how hard it is but it does get better.

shockeditellyou · 04/12/2023 07:23

Was he in childcare before school? Does he know how to behave in group settings?

Phineyj · 04/12/2023 07:36

When does he turn 5? He's not compulsory school age yet. Maybe he's not ready.

Visit Not Fine in School (Facebook).

lemmein · 04/12/2023 07:49

My grandson was like this. He had a 1:1 in school but mainstream really didn't have a clue how to handle him. He'd attend an hour a day, sometimes even less than that - my DD didn't bother going home most days and waited outside in the car for the inevitable phone call. He was on the verge of being kicked out of the school - at 4!

He got a EHCP, and was put on the pathway for ASD (now diagnosed). He was eventually awarded the funding by the LEA to attend a specialist school which he started when he was 5 and is absolutely thriving, he loves school now and has never come home early. His new school has 8 in a class and 4/5 teachers/support - they use the traffic light system which he really engages with and is so proud of himself when he's on 'green'  He's honestly a different kid since he started his new school.

We were so lucky that it only disrupted his first year, I know that's not typical and read plenty on here of parents who have to fight every step of the way. Luckily that wasn't my DDs experience at all.

We found the MS school just wanted him out so they called his mum for the most ridiculous reasons, I suppose understandable really, they don't have the benefit of small classes and lots of support. Their eagerness to remove him
actually helped really - by the time it went to the board for the decision on funding there was a catalogue of incidents which showed he just wasn't coping with the surroundings.

I'd start the ball rolling with getting him assessed - do they have an educational psychologist at the school?

newnamechangeforthisone · 04/12/2023 07:52

I think you need to sit down with him and ask him.

Two start any process they are offering regarding ALN. It could be he has them and is struggling with the extra noise and busy environment. Have you ever seen the behaviours anywhere?

Did he go to nursery or playgroups?

I had similar with my eldest, he was violent at home but no where near the level he was at home. He has additional needs and it was very mismanaged at school. For example, they would put loud music on to trigger "tidy up time" and they knew he reacted every time, but said the other children liked it so he needed to adapt. He never did.

SpamIAm · 04/12/2023 08:00

My three year old is very similar. Quite violent outbursts and generally not engaging with the other kids. He's definitely struggling with the noise in his class of 55 😱

Definitely pursue the assessment, but it doesn't sound like school are taking enough responsibility here. Similar for us really - we're doing our best to reinforce good behaviour etc but at the end of the day we're not seeing the behaviour that they are so I feel like there's a limit to what we can do 🤷‍♀️

Have you spoken to your health visitor? Ours was quite useful in advising what steps she'd expect the school to be taking.

newnamechangeforthisone · 04/12/2023 08:22

SpamIAm · 04/12/2023 08:00

My three year old is very similar. Quite violent outbursts and generally not engaging with the other kids. He's definitely struggling with the noise in his class of 55 😱

Definitely pursue the assessment, but it doesn't sound like school are taking enough responsibility here. Similar for us really - we're doing our best to reinforce good behaviour etc but at the end of the day we're not seeing the behaviour that they are so I feel like there's a limit to what we can do 🤷‍♀️

Have you spoken to your health visitor? Ours was quite useful in advising what steps she'd expect the school to be taking.

55? In one class? That's insane!!

PTSDBarbiegirl · 04/12/2023 08:45

Can he usually handle boundaries, could he cope in the big, busy nursery rooms? If he's still 4 in December he sounds too young for formal school. Does he follow direction. You might ask what is happening directly before the incidents and what is the outcome, does running out the room mean he is going to a quiet dark place, ear defenders might help but it sounds like he's in the wrong environment and the school aren't experienced in managing his needs. Violence against staff is not acceptable from any age group but possibly he needs more experience of a Play based approach.

shockeditellyou · 04/12/2023 08:47

PTSDBarbiegirl · 04/12/2023 08:45

Can he usually handle boundaries, could he cope in the big, busy nursery rooms? If he's still 4 in December he sounds too young for formal school. Does he follow direction. You might ask what is happening directly before the incidents and what is the outcome, does running out the room mean he is going to a quiet dark place, ear defenders might help but it sounds like he's in the wrong environment and the school aren't experienced in managing his needs. Violence against staff is not acceptable from any age group but possibly he needs more experience of a Play based approach.

The vast majority of 4 year olds cope fine in reception, which is part of the EYFS and play based.

PTSDBarbiegirl · 04/12/2023 08:53

shockeditellyou · 04/12/2023 08:47

The vast majority of 4 year olds cope fine in reception, which is part of the EYFS and play based.

Show quote history

'Reception' is not across the world or even UK. I guess the OP is in England because a still 4 year old elsewhere would be in nursery pre school.

Original poster
FernBb · 04/12/2023 08:54

Hi all,

I’m so grateful for the number of responses so I’m going to try and answer questions on this post.

he went to childcare 8-5 since he was 1.
he was coping fine until the final 6 months where he bit other kids cause they would take his things or do things he didn’t want them to do.

his assessment is on 21st so hopefully that helps but the headteacher said it won’t.

at home he doesn’t always get his own way because as a single mum, sometimes I don’t have time to play or we have jobs to do.
most of the time he’ll listen and do as asked, sometimes he’ll have a cry then do as asked.

i can’t home school due to my work so as you can imagine, threatening exclusion is putting a huge amount of stress on me

when asked why he does lash out, he says it’s because he wanted to do things, didn’t want to do things etc.

in parks or soft play areas, he doesn’t bother with the other kids and is fine

when he acts out, he does to a sensory room to talk through what happened and taught that it’s not ok to be violent and he is always remorseful
it just seems to be he’s very impulsive

OP posts:
Ostryga · 04/12/2023 09:03

What are the consequences at home for when he hits someone at school? i would come up with something that you always follow through with if he hits someone. He needs to know it is not acceptable under any circumstances, even if he is overwhelmed. I know it’s very difficult for SEN children (dd has SEN) but the consequences can’t just end at school.

Dd would have restricted tv/ipad access if I got a call from school which did seem to help her understand that just because I don’t see it happened doesn’t mean I don’t know and I won’t accept it.

Shithole101 · 04/12/2023 09:08

The school sounds shit . " knocking out teachers" "it won't work " the head is already dramatising things theses are the things you know of how do you know she/he is not dramatising the whole thing . I'm not saying it's not happening but is it really as they are saying ? Sounds like he's better of away from that school. He needs to be at one that's willing to help

BelindaOkra · 04/12/2023 09:17

When is he 5 OP? Is he young for the school year? He does sound impulsive - but lots of 4 year olds are!

Exclusion would fast track him getting the support he needs (& money the school needs for that support). But that doesn’t really help you now or make that any less stressful.

I would be cross about the language being used by the school about a 4 year old (& I work with kids more dysregulated than your son) but that just highlights their lack of experience and expertise.

HardHeartedHarbingerofHaggis · 04/12/2023 09:28

He sounds completely overwhelmed with the school environment and his behaviour is a result.

I dont think the way the school are phrasing/dealing with it is helpful. School should be managing him differently, plenty of time out of the classroom, in a small group or one to one. Avoiding busy dining hall etc. What was he like at nursery, did he cope? That said budgets the way they are they may not have enough staff to cover this level of need, does he need to be at school yet? Being at home with just you is completely different to being in a classroom with 29 other children with rules, expectations, noise, sensory input etc so it's not surprising that the child school describe is not recognisable to the child you have at home. Bare in mind too do you make adjustments for him at home, possibly you do without even realising. This is not a bad thing at all but just an insight in to how his home environment and expectations differ from school and why he is struggling with it.

stomachameleon · 04/12/2023 09:41

@Shithole101 I think the school are unlikely to have said those things. He is being assessed fairly quickly.
Hopefully the assessment will come up with some answers.

Superscientist · 04/12/2023 09:56

Do you have any enhanced resources schools nearby?
My daughter is starting school in September and will have only just turned 4. When we were viewing schools the one that stood out was an enhanced resources schools. When I asked about a few additional needs they were the only school that asked specifics and as they are used to looking at including kids with additional needs it comes natural to the to adjust to the individual needs of the other children. The other schools muttered something about all kids a different and moved on.

What ever is going on, do you think this school is the place where a resolution will be found?