At wit’s end with DD9

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DD9 is having violent outbursts. She has about 10 minutes homework, four days a week from school and tries to get through it as quickly as possible. She’s naturally bright but very slap-dash.

We are trying to stretch her a bit ahead of secondary school and have a lovely tutor who friends used for years who sets her extra homework which is a bit tougher. That homework would probably take one hour to do if done efficiently.

Last weekend was almost wrecked as she spent all week dodging the tutor’s homework and then we had Sunday morning left to do it. I waited with her for 45 minutes as she had the papers in front of her and she kept messing around. Moaning she couldn’t do it. Dropping the pencil. Staring out the window.

I had to leave the room and go for a walk before I lost it.

This morning, she knew it had to be done as she chose not to do it yesterday or all week.

She wanted breakfast so I offered cereal, bagel or eggs. She wanted pancakes - nope, not happening. I had also blocked screen time on the iPad.

She has just had a massive meltdown kicking and screaming and lashing out at me, throwing things at me.

When I restrained her - she was kicking me repeatedly - she screamed even more hysterically.

She has just sent abusive messages via the iPad to me - so while the apps are blocked clearly I haven’t blocked messaging.

I expected this when she got to teenage years but not really at 9. She has always been quite turbulent but it’s escalating. Does this sound like we have a)raised an entitled brat, b)a child with SEN or c)something else eg a narcissist? or d) perfectly normal tween behaviour?

I don’t want to quit the tutor as she is perfectly behaved there as she is at school - a model pupil with model behaviour. It’s at home when the misery begins. She also repeatedly pinches and attacks her big brother who is 12 until he has enough and slaps her back and of course, he then gets into trouble as I will not tolerate any boy hitting a girl and I often haven’t realised that she started it as I may not be in the room.

Letting her quit the tutor will simply feed into the idea that she will always get her way. Plus she frankly needs the practice and discipline of sometimes doing difficult things she may not like to do.

What do you do in the moment to calm a child like this? It is taking every inch of self restraint I have in my own hormonal peri-menopausal state - not to mention my own DV childhood - to not lash out so I’ve left the room!

I’m just so damn tired. I don’t expect gratitude but nor do I expect total disdain and abuse.

She's 9. She's under pressure. She may be masking. She may be a brat , you need to find out.
SHE IS 9.

She’s 9!! Let her be a kid, stop with the extra homework and let her spend her time at home doing what she wants to and relaxing.

Might be a bit of SEN as the classic presentation in girls is model pupil at school and meltdowns (including physical violence at home). This is also peak age for the light bulb going off in parents of girls. There is also a heightened sense of hypocrisy or injustice, so for example if you have said to her you shouldn’t avoid doing things because they are hard and take extra effort, she may think that your refusal to make her pancakes is doing exactly what you are telling her not to do. Eggs, cereal toast are all easy low effort breakfasts, pancakes take more effort. You’re telling her no to something that’s extra effort for you to do at her request and yet expecting her to do extra effort on extra homework for you. She will think that is not fair at all.

That’s the sort of logic a child of this age and possible SEN could have. So you want to be careful using these sort of justifications to motivate her, because they will apply them to things they ask of you.

Regardless, I do wonder if trying to do a full hour of extra work is too much at once for a child this age. Her school sets ten minutes a night, so I would not go beyond doing an extra ten minutes a day of homework and break the tutors work into ten minute chunks.

Letting her quit the tutor will simply feed into the idea that she will always get her way. Plus she frankly needs the practice and discipline of sometimes doing difficult things she may not like to do.

SEN or no SEN, this is kind of cruel. Usually with children you would engage a tutor in something they enjoy doing. Music, art, sport hobby something they have an eager interst in and really want to do. No school child needs practice and discipline of doing something they do not like because they get that daily at school with compulsory subjects.

I get that @VariationsonaTheme but she knows as soon as homework is done, she can have screen time which is all she ever wants to do. Compared to our friends’ DC, I fear ours have actually been given too much free time. We have been too liberal on discipline and boundaries. Other DC just seem to come home and crack on with their work, not find every excuse to wriggle out of it.

“When I restrained her - she was kicking me repeatedly - she screamed even more hysterically.”

This is also a sign of SEN meltdown, not tantrum or naughtiness. With a child having a meltdown it’s like a fit, you have to be hands off but keeping them and you safe until it is over. You don’t ever try and physically restrain them.

@IslaWinds that’s a really good point re the pancakes and logic.

She is highly competitive though and I know she gets cross if others do better than her - and it’s usually because they’ve put in the effort!

I know she’s 9 but she’s in year 5 when things start becoming 11+ focused.

For her to stay at her school which goes to 18 (London independent) which she loves, she needs to keep up.

I too think the system is ridiculous and it’s hard to convey to anyone outside the London day school world. We had her at her local school before and she was very bored and has thrived at her newish school while she’s been there. Perhaps she’s feeling the pressure from school and us now.

She was kicking and punching me so I grabbed her leg to stop her bruising me or even breaking a bone as it was done with great force. Does this point to ADHD, autism or PDA maybe? Could it be screen addiction frustration as I had blocked the internet?

Our kids are at state school in London and had no homework other than reading in primary. Our eldest has gone up to secondary school this year and has had no issues with doing homework despite my worries about the change (he has ASD so change is hard) so if it is solely to prepare her I would drop it. If she needs to study for 11+ then can you break it up to more manageable chunks. An hour is a lot at once. Also can you talk to her about why she is struggling so much with it - it seems more than just a dislike of the work.

I think she's acting out because she isn't coping with the pressure. It doesn't really matter what other people's kids do - only your own.
If she really is at risk of losing her school place over this, explain that to her in a calm and age appropriate way - not, do your homework or you will get kicked out, but it's going to be really useful to cover this at home and will make school better as you already have practiced this (or similar). Break down the hour and give her more choices, but better options - shall we do 15 minutes now and then have pancakes? Or pancakes and then 15 minutes work? I suspect the more you push the less useful that will be.
Also, stop punishing your son and get to the bottom of an incident before you start telling off. That's a perfect storm for resentment that's brewing there.

Restraining is a strange term. I know you were at risk of being harmed but could you have walked away? I hugged my DD tightly at this age if she was upset but it was consensual and she knew it was one of the only things that calmed her.

I agree breaking the homework down for her, it sounds as though she's overwhelmed with it right now. So how about saying "we'll do 20 minutes tonight and then you can have half an hour of your iPad? And if we do that over 3 nights it will be done?".

Agree though with the PP they behaving beautifully at school and having meltdowns at home are very much usual traits of ASD in girls so you might want to start reading up on that

We get the child we get. I think that’s my biggest learning from motherhood. No point in comparing because 1. People frequently lie 2. Doesn’t change how your own child behaves.
People have given lots of good suggestions, I wouldn’t frame it as brattish behaviour. If she is doing well at school does she really need to do another hour at the weekend? I do think good chance of SEN as others have said there are some classic signs of very well behaved at school, violent outbursts at home.
If you frame the outbursts as panic attacks rather than naughtiness I think you might come closer to finding a resolution.

If you frame the outbursts as panic attacks rather than naughtiness I think you might come closer to finding a resolution. Once I realised DD wasn't coping and the outburst was actually a meltdown our relationship changed for the better. She still struggles, the wheels well and truly came off yesterday but when everything was calm again we had a chat about how things could go better next time and she know that I well and truly will look after her no matter what.

I am seeing clues of Autism and/or ADHD. Not being able to concentrate for an hour of extra work & excuse to not do it. That’s why I suggested breaking the hour into ten minute chunks as you have said she can manage ten minutes of homework that the school sets her. So perhaps ten minutes schoolwork, a half hour break and then ten minutes tutor work a day?

The love of screens- many autistic children can calm themselves head off a meltdown by using screens to self soothe and self regulate. So it’s not an addiction if she has SEN.

So, yes if this is an autism related meltdown you would keep a safe distance from her if she is kicking/hitting you. Or even pull off a sofa cushion and say- kick this not me! It’s like a fit and they need to be given safe ways to get the aggression out without hurting you or themselves. It gets better as they get older, teens/adults will go for a walk/run or gym as they’ve learned to channel that energy into something not damaging. It’s like blowing off steam.

These are all ifs. Not diagnosing your DD. But honestly, if she is a bit emotionally immature for her age, that’s another common factor of children with SEN. Autism and ADHD are also linked to high IQ- so if your child is very bright and gets top grades this is also very common. SEN doesn’t always mean being behind and low grades.

You might want to note observations to give in to the school and see if you can get her assessed.

@IslaWinds that’s a really good point re the pancakes and logic.
Thank you! ASD in many girls can be like this. Their brains are wired a bit different. It makes sense, it’s just that a NT person would not link the two things together as related in any way. ND people see connections we don’t see- it’s good in a way as research science is dominated by ND people but parenting can be a challenge!

Thank you @IslaWinds again. I have wondered about ADHD. I’ve thought about autism and the social awkwardness doesn’t seem to apply. If anything, she is the sort of kid who is at the centre of gossip or the ‘cool kids’ group’. She socially dissects everyone! She’s sporty and well co-ordinates. What she does have is anxiety about what to wear and how it feels - which I know can be a trait - and signs of perfectionism so if she can’t nail something first time she is prone to giving up. Perhaps it’s this? I have noticed that during the last 10 minutes of leaving for school, she loses all track of time and takes aaaaages. Her brother is a bit like this and a massive daydreamer and I have suspected inattentiveness in him (though no sign of hyperactivity).

As it happens, her tutor is a Senco! I might see if she has spotted anything.

she can have screen time which is all she ever wants to do.

I think this is part of the problem.
What limits are there on the iPad ?

That’s a good idea. Autistic girls tend to be less socially awkward than boys. They often learn social etiquette very quickly in primary schools and can be quite good at socialising, although they will often collapse at home- be moody, snappy or just want to veg out on a screen because it exhausts them and they need to be alone for a bit. They are also more likely to want to socialise than autistic boys. These are stereotypes though- there is overlap between girls and boys.

Things to look for would be a tendency to plan to the tiniest detail any social interaction- what to wear, what order to do things for a play date or their birthday party, even saying “I’m going to tell my friends about this and this”-almost pre- scripting the conversations, and very close adherence to things like saying thank you or please (manners).

@GrazingSheep I have Qustodio which locks it down. I’ve allowed 2 hours at the weekend but only after other things are done and not before they have to get ready for sports etc. (They’re not early risers - it’s more that they will try and grab a screen ahead of making sure they’re remotely ready). I should have had a total ban on screens over the years and am now reaping the consequences. It has killed their passion for reading for a start which I find really sad and am not sure how to get it back. I buy any book they express an interest in and 8/10 times it is not finished.

She socially dissects everyone! over analysing every social interaction is an autism trait. It’s is to reassure themselves or if confiding in you, to be reassured by you that they didn’t put a foot wrong.

Is it also possible she is entering puberty and struggling with hormones. We expect a bit more of this kind of behaviour in teens because of puberty but it isn't uncommon for a 9 year old girl to have started this process.

Sounds rather like my daughter, who was diagnosed with autism aged 9 after years of wondering if she wasn’t quite like her peers. I only realised it was autism because her younger brother already had a diagnosis. She presents in a quite subtle way, and would have fit the criteria for Aspergers if that was still a diagnosis.

She’s very bright (managed to get into a super-selective grammar) but lazy and slapdash, exactly as you describe. Lots of demand avoidant traits. Cruel to her sibling. Behaves perfectly at school and saves the worst version of herself for home. She’s a champion masker.

I remember trying to help her with 11+ tutoring and having the same issues you are now. One day I also had to walk away before I lost it (I actually got in the car, drove to my parents house and broke down that I couldn’t understand why she was so oppositional to a tiny amount of revision despite knowing there was a purpose to all this).

You mention ADHD as a possibly more so than autism. That’s interesting because I find that ADHD is a condition that people prefer to autism, and I understand why. ADHD is more socially acceptable, whereas autism is associated with being weird and dislikable. So, given the choice, people would prefer their kid to have ADHD rather than autism…

However, I suspect they occur together more often than not. I think my DD could do with an ADHD assessment but I don’t have the energy to think about that right now. To be honest I see traits of both in your description of your DD.

I’ll list some of the red flags you’ve mentioned:

Demand avoidance
Executive function issues / distractability
Meltdowns
Anxiety
Sensory issues with clothing
Screen addiction (this is my DD to a tee - it’s dopamine seeking)
Perfect behaviour at school, less so at home

Of course you’ll get people blaming everything on screens and it’s all your fault, but actually it’s a chicken and egg scenario. Neurodivergent brains use screens to regulate and cope with overwhelm, as well as in pursuit of the dopamine they chronically lack. Neurotypical attitudes towards screen use just don’t apply.

Why on earth have a tutor if she's bright and doing well at school? Let her be a kid and if she hits her brother I'd leave it up to him to deal with it, if he hits her back it might make her rethink her hitting