At wit’s end with DD9

[Headexplodeemoji]

DD9 is having violent outbursts. She has about 10 minutes homework, four days a week from school and tries to get through it as quickly as possible. She’s naturally bright but very slap-dash.

We are trying to stretch her a bit ahead of secondary school and have a lovely tutor who friends used for years who sets her extra homework which is a bit tougher. That homework would probably take one hour to do if done efficiently.

Last weekend was almost wrecked as she spent all week dodging the tutor’s homework and then we had Sunday morning left to do it. I waited with her for 45 minutes as she had the papers in front of her and she kept messing around. Moaning she couldn’t do it. Dropping the pencil. Staring out the window.

I had to leave the room and go for a walk before I lost it.

This morning, she knew it had to be done as she chose not to do it yesterday or all week.

She wanted breakfast so I offered cereal, bagel or eggs. She wanted pancakes - nope, not happening. I had also blocked screen time on the iPad.

She has just had a massive meltdown kicking and screaming and lashing out at me, throwing things at me.

When I restrained her - she was kicking me repeatedly - she screamed even more hysterically.

She has just sent abusive messages via the iPad to me - so while the apps are blocked clearly I haven’t blocked messaging.

I expected this when she got to teenage years but not really at 9. She has always been quite turbulent but it’s escalating. Does this sound like we have a)raised an entitled brat, b)a child with SEN or c)something else eg a narcissist? or d) perfectly normal tween behaviour?

I don’t want to quit the tutor as she is perfectly behaved there as she is at school - a model pupil with model behaviour. It’s at home when the misery begins. She also repeatedly pinches and attacks her big brother who is 12 until he has enough and slaps her back and of course, he then gets into trouble as I will not tolerate any boy hitting a girl and I often haven’t realised that she started it as I may not be in the room.

Letting her quit the tutor will simply feed into the idea that she will always get her way. Plus she frankly needs the practice and discipline of sometimes doing difficult things she may not like to do.

What do you do in the moment to calm a child like this? It is taking every inch of self restraint I have in my own hormonal peri-menopausal state - not to mention my own DV childhood - to not lash out so I’ve left the room!

I’m just so damn tired. I don’t expect gratitude but nor do I expect total disdain and abuse.

If she’s ND she might have been overwhelmed by the extra work even if it meant iPad,

Why are you putting a 9 year old through this? She’s 9. She doesn’t need tuition.

My initial thought is, was she bored or did she have the time to rest and play and enjoy being a child?

I think this is all way too much pressure and focus on "outcomes" rather then enjoyment of life and learning through fun.

What do school say when you talk about at home behaviour and query SEN?

'Does this sound like we have a)raised an entitled brat, b)a child with SEN or c)something else eg a narcissist? or d) perfectly normal tween behaviour?'

E) reaction to pushy parents who are parenting the child they want instead of the child they have.

Some good comments and ideas here, but I would also suggest you look at the links between procrastination and perfectionism and emotional regulation.

I am an adult in a very high-paying and responsible role, but privately struggled with procrastination in certain work tasks I need to do. It was only recently I found the link between these 3 things and now I can see it’s something that started in my teenage years, but as a very bright child and high achiever and then high earner no one ever picked up on it, they assumed (like you do with your daughter) I could do it if I wanted to, I was just being naughty, or later as an adult ‘lazy’.

I’m dealing with the real issue now, and am slightly annoyed it took this long to find the real problem, and that I spent so long getting in trouble or thinking/being told I was lazy, when it was to do with the emotions around the task and the big chunk of time. I wish my parents had taught me to manage this 25 years ago in schooling or that I had found the answer at an earlier stage in working life.

The avoidance of homework and struggle to focus could be ADHD, and some of the other things you mention could be ASD. So I would get her assessed and do some reading around it.

I wouldn’t drop the Tutor but I’d ask them to drop the homework for now. If she isn’t coping with 10 mins slots from school, there is no point in loading more on top.

It sounds like her concentration may be shot from a day at school, but an assessment will help you figure what’s happening and how to help.

Girls can become quite wilful from 8 - it’s the tween stage. However she cannot send you rude messages or pinch her brother. I would come down on this like a ton of bricks and devise a system where she looses screen privileges. But, if you reduce the out of school academic demands on her while you figure things out then the meltdowns should be less.

Most kids have tuition from nine to get through the 11+

I do understand that lots of children do have autism and ADHD and other issues but sometimes on threads like these it seems like children are never allowed to be just a neurotypical child who is naughty or bored or lazy etc. Every child's actions seem to need to be diagnosed these days!

From what you have said I would assume that this is a child who does her work at school and finds it ok but doesn't want extra homework. Maybe it's too hard, maybe she just can't be bothered. But whatever, I would say, she's 9, it's not necessary, let's stop the tuition. And if that means she fails the 11+ then that shows grammar school is not the right route for her anyway.

With regard to hitting and kicking her brother until he retaliates and then he gets in trouble - that sounds like normal sibling rivalry. She's learned she can get him into trouble and enjoy pushing his buttons until he flips. I wouldn't punish him for hitting her back. If she's going to hurt people she will find that eventually she will get hurt back. Don't want to get hurt, don't hurt others.

The expectations you are putting on your, probably neurodiverse from the sounds of it, little girl are clearly overwhelming for her and she doesn't have the words to tell you.

This is why I’d never live in a grammar school area.

I agree. Can you stop all screen time, or cut right back to 30 minutes a day? Would be tough initially but I think you'd see a difference in behaviour.

I am familiar with your kind of school (used to teach in one) and so I know where you are coming from.

But you have to parent and ultimately choose a school for the child you've got, not the one you wish you had.

Your daughter is telling you as clearly as possible that this extra hour of homework at the weekend is too much.

If she likes screens, how about Atom Learning instead, little and often?

Siblings Without Rivalry is a good book.

Your methods aren't working.

It might be worth taking a step back and looking at your aims.

What you want, it a daughter who is not having meltdowns and is also able to keep up with a presumably fairly academic school.

In order to make sure she keeps up, you've got a tutor and are doing some homework at home.

However, your daughter is resisting, either intentionally or because she is finding this all overwhelming.

So at this point, you could double down. Take away screen time, attempt to enforce homework etc. the most likely outcome from that is that her meltdowns continue and get worse, and she starts to see you as the enemy.

Or, you can regroup.

• don't do the homework in an hour slot, do it in 5 min slots
• do some of the homework with her
• bribe her to get started (chocolate, whatever)

Also, maybe take a step back. What is her actual achievement like? I presume she is in a fairly academic school but does she actually need the tutoring? Can you make an appointment to talk to her teacher/form tutor about her progress and where she is?

I am quite a strict parent (definitely believe in discipline and giving them responsibilites, expecting a reasonable standard of behaviour etc etc) but I am sorry, I don't understand why a bright 9 year old needs a tutor. Trying to "stretch" children academically before they are cognitively ready can be pointless. And why is pancakes for breakfast at the weekend is such an unreasonable request?

Would it work to say, "yes, you can have pancakes but first you have to complete your homework." ? Or do you think using food as a reward is wrong?

I am probably an awful parent for this (or DH is, he cooks them) but DD has pancakes for breakfast every day. She's autistic with a somewhat restricted diet and I think it's good that it means she's eating egg in some form as she won't eat it in any other form.

We usually have pancakes on a Sunday when there is more time to make them. I knew if I turned to make them I would not be able to keep an eye on her.

She’s not at a super pushy school. She’s at an independent school (hasn’t been there long) that she absolutely loves. The school has been inundated with applications for year 7 and keeps getting more popular so they’re being more selective about who gets to stay for secondary. It’s supply and demand and I suspect it’s a London thing. I don’t want her or my son in a grammar school and we are not in zone for them. I want them to be somewhere with sports and music opportunities and loads of extra curricular things we don’t have the capacity to support outside the school day rather than a hothouse. I totally believe in the school having to fit the child rather than it being about ‘the top school’. But just to keep her in a more relaxed setting where she is thriving has now become more competitive. That means eventually having tests and that means some practice for them and brushing up in areas that need it. For my daughter, that’s writing. And I suspect that’s also because screens supplanted reading for fun.

I worry if some small study habits aren’t embedded at the tail end of primary, it’s really hard to cement them further down the line when hormones etc are raging even more!

I will look into the ND possibilities more. A PP suggested ADHD is more ‘acceptable’
and that’s why I may have jumped to that but I think it’s actually eyed more suspiciously.

@LinesAndDot Thank you for sharing your experience. I find this fascinating and a bit familiar. What could your parents have done and what tools/techniques/support systems have you used since? Do you still procrastinate or do you just avoid the tasks that you find impossible?

She sounds very similar to my ADHD daughter, so here are the two main things that have helped:

1. my DD (11) has basically no screen time. Screen time doesn’t help her, it’s just a mindless bland comforter that makes her moody and emotional when she comes up for air, so she knows that she doesn’t use it outside homework and she’s fine (always bumpy getting them to initially quit, but it’s worth pushing through). The toughest bit is role-modelling it and staying off my phone, but I realise I then have better evenings and weekends because I’m reading a book, doing a jigsaw, cooking a cake.

Someone on here recently said constant access to internet for our children is the biggest social experiment the human race has ever seen, and we’re only just beginning to understand all of the negative consequences.

1. Dropping the rope on our expectations. She’s extremely bright and was a massively early reader, and it’s thrilling to imagine everything she’s capable of in the future - but looking at my own career (also ADHD) and reading about the crashes of bright kids in teens and twenties, we’ve realised it’s far, far better for us to provide opportunity and range for her, to let her enjoy just enjoying stuff rather than defining really early what “success” or “failure” looks like. So instead of 9s at GCSEs, straight As at A Level, Oxbridge etc, we now focus on giving her recipes to make, things to build, people to talk to (friends of ours or friends of other family) that she’d otherwise ignore because she’d be on screens/doing homework fighting us about homework. She does exactly the allotted amount of school work (unless she’s really passionate about it), then spends free time talking, questioning (oh GOD the questions), building, reading, playing games, doing the maths she loves rather than what a tutor/teacher says she has to do.

Otherwise, it’s just stuff that helps all children but is particularly good with ND kids: loads of outdoor time and physical movement, and when they’re extremely emotional, asking if you can make physical contact (“do you want a hug? Do you want me to give you more space than this?” rather than physical restraint - move yourself rather than holding them).

Raising any child is tricky, and there’s a million ways it can be trickier, but the fact that you’re asking on here shows you want things to be different. Good luck, OP!

Thank you @DataPestle that is very constructive. I totally agree about screen time. She has always been very cunning! That’s interesting about dropping expectations. I don’t particularly aspire for her to be a straight A student so she can go to Oxford. I want her to get good enough grades so it can open doors to whatever pursuit or lifestyle she wants. If it’s to be an artist, then great. If it’s to be a pastry chef, superb. If it’s to be a lawyer… I may try to talk her out of it as I don’t know many who are happy!

Could this be as simple as a bright child who has never had to focus, try hard and fail a few times? If everything has always come super easily to her, it will feel awful and she’ll have no coping mechanisms. Have you modelled finding things hard, trying again, how you personally deal with feeling frustrated etc?

I had real struggles with DC over 11+ prep, and it was basically that. DC absolutely hated not getting things right first time, had no experience in how to learn as they just ‘knew’ at school and wouldn’t listen to explanations past the first sentence. I figured these were important life skills, and better they learned now than trying to do so as teens or adults.

my DD (11) has basically no screen time. Screen time doesn’t help her, it’s just a mindless bland comforter that makes her moody and emotional when she comes up for air

Oh wow, you’ve put that so well. My DD (12) is exactly like that. But being autistic, the “moody and emotional” so often becomes a full screaming meltdown.

It’s such an awful dilemma. I accept she genuinely needs screen time to regulate and unwind after a full on day at school, but equally she gets sucked into a vortex that her brain just can’t snap out of.

Obviously every child is different and ASD and ADHD children especially, but I do wonder at the idea that every neurodiverse child “needs” tech. Sorry to those who have really thought and researched and it’s truly all that works for your child! But I think we’ve normalised tech access from such a young age that ND children often haven’t had a chance to explore what they might be comforted by instead while also letting their brains and imagination develop, eg. When I was young, I’d spend hours on my back under the big dresser-thing in the kitchen, looking at the wooden patterns and making up stories, or sorting out my granny’s button box over and over again, or swinging on a swing for hours and hours.

I know every child can’t access these things for one reason or another, but as I say, I wonder what we’ve exacerbated in large proportions of ND children by going straight to an iPad.

@Headexplodeemoji We struggled with what success looks like. In our fields, it probably does range from pastry chef to lawyer, but what if our DD wants to “just” be a supermarket shelf stacker so her free time is completely her own to walk, write, paint, daydream? Would we be comfortable saying to our friends that such a high-achieving child had “ended up” doing that job? Realised immediately that was awful snobbery, and if DD can be safe, healthy and have the opportunities she wants, that’s all that matters, and will hopefully avoid most of the career and mental health crashes G&T children often struggle with.

Sounds like my dd when the light bulb went off for adhd. She's doing alot better still has her outbursts but pediatrics is starting to think autism with pda worth looking into.

Stop bending over backwards to please her and stop the screen time

Interesting @coxesorangepippin . A friend’s wife who is a psychologist stayed with us for a long weekend. She observed that my son seemed a bit frightened of his younger sister and I said ‘I think we all are!’

Obviously every child is different and ASD and ADHD children especially, but I do wonder at the idea that every neurodiverse child “needs” tech.

That’s a great point, and something I wrestle with a lot.

I guess the problem is that when you go searching for advice from autism advocates (be it parents or autistic people themselves) you often find people pushing conflicting agendas around screen time. Usually they sit at opposites ends of the debate.

Absolutely no screen time at all, ever!

Absolutely no restrictions on screen time, ever!

Of course (it’s taken me a long time to figure this out actually 😳) these self-styled experts are just pushing what they did as the solution.

But how do you even rein it in? I tried confiscating my DD’s phone overnight once - when I caught her messaging a friend at 10:30pm on a school night - and the resulting meltdown was so massive (screaming stuff about needing her phone to call 999 if there was a fire) my husband gave it back for a quiet life. Dickhead. Now she claims she neeeeeds it at night because it’s her alarm clock.